8/18    Can someone repost a list of good strategic war games that don't
        emphasize on civ build-ups? Thanks.
        \_ Risk, Axis & Allies are good board games.  Anything from SSI is
           probably too complex.  -John
        \_ Avalon Hill Games
        \_ What do you mean by strategic?  True wargames differ by scale,
           and are divided into 'tactical' (brigade level, and lower), and
           'operational' (army level, and above).  A good example of the first
           group is Squad Leader.  A good example of the second group is
           Talonsoft's Operational Art of War.  I prefer operational games
           myself, but those games are no longer wargames per se, they often
           model diplomatic, economic, and geopolitical considerations
           (not to mention logistics).  Thus, they are by necessity civ-like.
           Good recent operational games are Hearts of Iron (centering on WWII),
           and Europa Universalis (centering on 15th-19th century) by
           Paradox Entertainment, both use the same engine.  An excellent
           tactical game is Combat Mission: Barbarossa to Berlin, by
           Battlefront.  If you are interested in wargames, drop me an email
           and we can chat more.  I am always looking for more people to play
           (AI tends to suck in complicated wargames, not surprisingly).
             -- ilyas
        \_ chess.
        \_ baiting tom.
           \_ not good, not strategic, not a war game. well ok, it's good.
              and it's a game.  but it's like playing solitaire and cheating.
              you can't lose because it's too easy.
                                          \_ like yermom? -!tom
                                             \_ "i know you are but what am i?"
                                                \_ "it's too easy, like yermom"
        \_ checkers.
        \_ Settlers of Catan is a simple yet very enjoyable strategic
           game, but it's based on resources and growth not war.  There
           are supposedly expansion packs or newer versions that incorporate
           war, though.
           \_ settlers of catan is great, (even women enjoy it), but it isn't
              a war game.
              \_ odd game.  i won my first game and i'm still not sure why.
                \_ Settlers is an example of a steamroller game.  A few
                   lucky rolls of the dice, and you win:  some advantage
                   leads to more advantage, exponentially.  It's not like
                   netrek, where the more you succeed, the harder it is
                   to gain more.
                   \_ If you like Settlers check out Puerto Rico. A bit more
                      complicated, but really fun and there's almost no
                      element of luck involved.
                      \_ there is luck in Puerto Rico -- the order and
                         ability of players is important.
                   \_ With the "Cities and Knights" expansion, Settlers is
                      a much better game, because it's easier to gang up on
                      whomever's in front.  -tom
                   \_ Even without the expansion, whenever I play Settlers
                      people gang up on whoever is in front by using the
                      robber, refusing to trade with the leader, using
                      hostile development cards, etc.  If you feel that
                      Settlers is a "steamroller game", you should try
                      playing against better opponents.
                        \_ Yes, but all of those things often don't
                           make too much of a dent in the front-runner.
                           With enough of an advantage, and some good dice
                           rolls you can triumph over all possible opposition
                           in Settlers.  The robber is at the level of an
                           irritant only, if you're big enough.
                           \_ But cards like "Wedding" and "Sabotage", plus
                              futzing around with knights if you've got grain,
                              makes Cities and  Knights a lot more dynamic,
                              and it's feasible to gain 4 or 5 victory points
                              in a single turn if you plan it right.    I
                              agree that the base Settlers game tends to
                              steamroll.  -tom
        \_ Board games or computer games?
                \_ board game:  Rise and Fall fo the Third Reich ...
                        \_ Takes forever to set up, ages to get the hang of,
                           and aeons to play.  I recommend against this and most
                           Avalon Hill games unless you're willing to put in
                           a lot of time with your hard-core gamer friends, at
                           which point they are pretty decent.  -John
                           \_ how much of a hardcore gamer are you John?
                                \_ Not nearly enough to spend 3 days learning
                                   Rise & Fall...you're talking to Mr. short
                                   attention span here.  :-)  -John
        \_ Fist of Fury in My Pants.
        \_ Matrix Games is supposed to be releasing a PC version of
           the ultra-complicated Napoleonic classic Empires in Arms
           later this year.  Looks promising.
        \_ Cosmic Encounters.  After 3 sessions of CE with 6 or 7 players that
           last anywhere from 15 minutes to 8 hours you'll have earned your
           degree in Cosmic Lawyering and be ready to squish the little peons
           who normally argue in places like the US Supreme Court and the Motd.
           \_ is it a cutt-throat game?  More so than Diplomacy?
              \_ Diplomacy is for the weak.  It has set rules and a known
                 starting position.  Only the strong survive in the world
                 of Cosmic Encounter.
                 \_ Have you played CE against PSB?
                    \_ I would not dare challenge the psb.  I am beneath.
                       \_ I'm having a Big U moment.
                          \- hey i went 13 CE wins in a row ...
                             ATOMIC ENCOUNTER ... molon labe. --psb