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| 12/25 |
| 2003/7/20 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:29084 Activity:insanely high |
7/20 http://www.nytimes.com/2003/07/20/weekinreview/20KIFN.html?8hpib Oh no! We are screwed! \_ couple points. 1. Thanks for the article. 2.How come NY Times didn't publish this article *BEFORE* the damn war started? It might just persuade public opinion to some degree. 3. Does any of the Sodans actually believe that democracy and the well-being of the Iraqis are USA and UK's objective? -kngharv \_ 1. nothing new here. 2. it has nothing to do with anything and the NYT published far more biased anti-war nonsense before the war. 3. In part. 4. The NYT has a really shitty track record for reporting and editing in the last few years, maybe you should find another source for your news and information. 5. Why does the NYT *not* tell you about the 90+ mass graves that have been found to date? Why does the NYT *not* tell you about how well the vast majority of the population is doing now than under the mass murdering butcher Hussein in terms of everything from basic service improvements such as power and water all the way to the right to *not* get dragged away and executed just because? No matter what happens now, the people are better off than they were before and we had a moral obligation to help them as much as we could. Freedom is a messy business and it will take time for life to settle down there but it *is* improving and is already better than they had under the Baathists. \_ we had to kill them to save them. They are happy now. \_ If the mass majority of the people are doing so well, why are they dancing in the streets celebrating around destroyed humvees? \_ Don't kid yourself. US always puts its own self-interest first. That's why Donald Duck approved all 50 cases where bombing may likely kill 30 or more civilians. Every single case. \_ 90+ mass graves? Is that from the same source that told us about Iraq buying African Uranium? Or that Iraq has lots of chemical/biological weapons? Haven't you learned by now to take the words of these liars and blindly-following media with a grain of salt? to take the words of these liars and blindly-following-afraid- to-appear-unpatriotic media with a grain of salt? \_ "The very first report, as I recall, was of mass graves that turned out to be cemeteries. But because the news accounts on CNN repeated incessantly that they were "mass graves," it simply confirmed the public's predisposition to believe that Saddam Hussein was a genocidal maniac. Ever since, the Times has been reporting on bodies being turned up by the hundreds or thousands in one place or another, and in each instance the dispatch suggests that these were the result of Saddam's brutality. My caution is the result of having consulted experts in the history of Iraq, who tell me there are most certainly mass graves all over the country, because it has been at war since 1958. That is, "Nineteen Fifty Eight," when the monarchy fell. I'm advised that most of the slaughter that occurred over this period was in these early years of civil war, when there really were men and families lined up along ditches, machine-gunned or in other ways executed. There are also stories of "mass graves" that followed the 1991 Gulf War, when the USA urged the Shi'ites in the South and Kurds in the North of Iraq to take up arms against the Baghdad regime. I think even Human Rights Watch would have to say that "rebels" who are trying to kill "loyal" should expect to either succeed or pay the consequences, as they did when the USA was nowhere around to back them up." http://www.wanniski.com/showarticle.asp?articleid=2674 \_ Remember the truck they said was used for making chemical / biologial weapons? Experts have come out and said that that's nonsense. Guess that's why you no longer hear about it. |
| 12/25 |
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| www.nytimes.com/2003/07/20/weekinreview/20KIFN.html?8hpib By JOHN KIFNER (NYT) 1529 words Late Edition - Final , Section 4 , Page 1 , Column 1 ABSTRACT - History of British involvement in Iraq recalled as boding ill for US occupation today; photo Please Note: Archive articles do not include photos, charts or graphics. To read the complete article, simply click on one of the BUY NOW buttons below. You can buy this single article or, for even greater value, you can purchase this article as part of a multi-pack. You'll then have the opportunity to buy additional articles now or in the future at significant savings! Article Archive: 1996-Present multi-packs are not valid for use with Article Archive: 1851-1995 multi-packs and vice versa. How multi-packs work: A multi-pack is an archive package that saves you money by allowing you to pre-purchase a set number of articles in bulk at a reduced price. You can then debit from your multi-pack and quickly access articles from the archive at your convenience over the lifetime of the multi-pack. Please Note: Article Archive 1996-Present multi-packs are not valid for use with Article Archive: 1851-1995 multi-packs and vice versa. Once you purchase an article, you may view it as often as you like over the next 90 days. |
| www.wanniski.com/showarticle.asp?articleid=2674 The previous executive editor, Joseph Lelyveld, has been asked to return on a temporary basis, so I would hope he would give this memo seriously attention. Memo To: Howell Raines, NYTimes executive editor From: Jude Wanniski Re: All those bodies Over the last several weeks, Howell, your paper has run several accounts of mass graves being unearthed in Iraq. Because it is now becoming clearer by the day that Iraq had no weapons of mass destruction, when our government decided to incinerate roughly 25,000 Iraqi civilians and soldiers, mass graves now seem one of the new justifications for our pre-emptive war. And the Times has been leading the charge in discovering them. You of course realize by now that I have been correct in warning you that Iraq has had no WMD since 1991, and may not have actually had any before that. Im not expecting you to say I was right, but I do hope you will take my advice in urging your reporters in Iraq to be more careful in their reports of mass graves. The very first report, as I recall, was of mass graves that turned out to be cemeteries. But because the news accounts on CNN repeated incessantly that they were mass graves, it simply confirmed the publics predisposition to believe that Saddam Hussein was a genocidal maniac. Ever since, the Times has been reporting on bodies being turned up by the hundreds or thousands in one place or another, and in each instance the dispatch suggests that these were the result of Saddams brutality. My caution is the result of having consulted experts in the history of Iraq, who tell me there are most certainly mass graves all over the country, because it has been at war since 1958. Im advised that most of the slaughter that occurred over this period was in these early years of civil war, when there really were men and families lined up along ditches, machine-gunned or in other ways executed. There are also stories of mass graves that followed the 1991 Gulf War, when the USA urged the Shiites in the South and Kurds in the North of Iraq to take up arms against the Baghdad regime. I think even Human Rights Watch would have to say that rebels who are trying to kill loyalists should expect to either succeed or pay the consequences, as they did when the USA was nowhere around to back them up. In an e-mail I received a few days ago from Joost Hilterman, the lawyer for Human Rights Watch who for the last decade has been the most insistent in 22 arguing Saddam committed genocide. There has been a conflict with our intelligence agencies on this matter, as they have acknowledged there has been no evidence that Saddam Hussein used WMD against his own people. It has been Hiltermans position that when the regime ended and a search could begin, mass graves containing upward of 100,000 Iraqi Kurds would be found in mass graves. He and Human Rights Watch originally believed they had been gassed, but now contend they were rounded up in the final months of the Iran-Iraq war, trucked to remote areas south of Kurdistan, machine-gunned to death, and buried in mass graves. As far as I know, these are the only alleged acts of genocide by the Baghdad government over the years, as Hilterman has acknowledged that the Iraqi Kurds who died at Halabja in March 1988 were caught between the warring Iraqi and Iranian armies. You may recall the CIAs senior analyst covering that war at the time, Dr. Now if Hilterman is right, and the mass graves he believes are waiting to be discovered are soon found, that will end this matter at least in my mind once and for all. I would be most surprised if they are found and verified by forensic experts as victims of machine-gunned genocide 15 years ago. If they are not found, Id have to conclude that the assertions of genocide that President Bush cited again and again to justify war in his own mind will be as false as the assertions about hidden weapons of mass destruction. No portion of this report may be reproduced in any form without prior written consent. The information has been compiled from sources we believe to be reliable but we do not hold ourselves responsible for its correctness. |