Berkeley CSUA MOTD:Entry 27317
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2025/05/24 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
5/24    

2003/2/6 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China, Reference/History/WW2] UID:27317 Activity:very high
2/5     Question for you freepers: what's with all the reference to
        "commies" and "pinkos" on the site?  I thought communism was dead.
        \_ Communism was dead?  What about Cuba and North Korea?
                                \_ Don't forget China.
                                   \_ don't forget Berkeley
                                        \_ Real Communism hasn't yet
                                           been tried in Berkeley ;-)
                                           \_ They should.  They'd fall out
                                              of love with it FAST ENOUGH.
                                          \_ Real Communism never been tried
                                             anywhere.
         \_ What is wrong with Communism?
           \_ and the freepers who call everyone who dissagrees with them
              "commies" are saying that they're all in league with north
              korea or cuba?  are they really that dumb?
           controls their legislature.  CHINA, Argentina, SOuth Africa,
           \_ Who cares about N. Korea. That country's about to collapse
              under its own weight. Just give it some time. Cuba couldn't
              hurt the U.S. if its life depended on it. It's like a
              football player saying that an emaciated homeless person
              is a threat to his life.
        \_ Ok, then what is the difference between Communist / Socialist
           beliefs and a large contigent of the Democratic party?  Much of
           Europe is communist / socialist.  The French Communist Party,
           CHINA, Venezuela, SOuth Africa,
           numerous other countries in Africa, Brazil, are all communist
           or heading that way.
           \_ Are you really that stupid?
              \_ Yeah, probably.
                 \_ Start with http://csua.org/u/8e7
                    and see what Engels had to say about Socialism.
           \_ stop putting your mental diarrhea on the motd
                \_ Ok so I ask a question on the differences between
                   the Democratic platform and socialism, and the answer
                   is an insult.  FDR, the prototypical commie/socialist,
                   was jealous of Stalin because of he was much more
                   effective at government control.
                   FDR's administration was replete with communist
                   spies or sympathisers.   The ACLU, UN etc. were
                   all founded by Socialists or Communists.  Since I am so
                   naive, I'll ask the question again.  If you are
                   not Socialist, what are you? 'Progressive'.  And I guess
                   I really am this stupid as the rulers of the countries
                   I mentioned freely admit their intentions and political
                   affiliations.  So I guess Venezuela sending Cuba
                   free oil is meaningless?
2025/05/24 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
5/24    

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Cache (8192 bytes)
csua.org/u/8e7 -> www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1847/11/prin-com.htm
But there have not always been workers and poor people living under conditions as they are today; The Proletariat originated in the industrial revolution, which took place in England in the last half of the last (18th) century, and which has since then been repeated in all the civilized countries of the world. This industrial revolution was precipitated by the discovery of the steam engine, various spinning machines, the mechanical loom, and a whole series of other mechanical devices. These machines, which were very expensive and hence could be bought only by big capitalists, altered the whole mode of production and displaced the former workers, because the machines turned out cheaper and better commodities than the workers could produce with their inefficient spinning wheels and handlooms. The result was that the capitalists soon had everything in their hands and nothing remained to the workers. This marked the introduction of the factory system into the textile industry. Once the impulse to the introduction of machinery and the factory system had been given, this system spread quickly to all other branches of industry, especially cloth- and book-printing, pottery, and the metal industries. Labor was more and more divided among the individual workers so that the worker who previously had done a complete piece of work now did only a part of that piece. This division of labor made it possible to produce things faster and cheaper. It reduced the activity of the individual worker to simple, endlessly repeated mechanical motions which could be performed not only as well but much better by a machine. In this way, all these industries fell, one after another, under the dominance of steam, machinery, and the factory system, just as spinning and weaving had already done. But at the same time, they also fell into the hands of big capitalists, and their workers were deprived of whatever independence remained to them. Gradually, not only genuine manufacture but also handicrafts came within the province of the factory system as big capitalists increasingly displaced the small master craftsmen by setting up huge workshops, which saved many expenses and permitted an elaborate division of labor. This is how it has come about that in civilized countries at the present time nearly all kinds of labor are performed in factories -- and, in nearly all branches of work, handicrafts and manufacture have been superseded. This process has, to an ever greater degree, ruined the old middle class, especially the small handicraftsmen; These are: The class of big capitalists, who, in all civilized countries, are already in almost exclusive possession of all the means of subsistance and of the instruments (machines, factories) and materials necessary for the production of the means of subsistence. This is called the class of proletarians, or the proletariat. Labor is a commodity, like any other, and its price is therefore determined by exactly the same laws that apply to other commodities. In a regime of big industry or of free competition -- as we shall see, the two come to the same thing -- the price of a commodity is, on the average, always equal to its cost of production. Hence, the price of labor is also equal to the cost of production of labor. But, the costs of production of labor consist of precisely the quantity of means of subsistence necessary to enable the worker to continue working, and to prevent the working class from dying out. The worker will therefore get no more for his labor than is necessary for this purpose; However, since business is sometimes better and sometimes worse, it follows that the worker sometimes gets more and sometimes gets less for his commodities. But, again, just as the industrialist, on the average of good times and bad, gets no more and no less for his commodities than what they cost, similarly on the average the worker gets no more and no less than his minimum. This economic law of wages operates the more strictly the greater the degree to which big industry has taken possession of all branches of production. The working classes have always, according to the different stages of development of society, lived in different circumstances and had different relations to the owning and ruling classes. In antiquity, the workers were the slaves of the owners, just as they still are in many backward countries and even in the southern part of the United States. In the Middle Ages, they were the serfs of the land-owning nobility, as they still are in Hungary, Poland, and Russia. In the Middle Ages, and indeed right up to the industrial revolution, there were also journeymen in the cities who worked in the service of petty bourgeois masters. Gradually, as manufacture developed, these journeymen became manufacturing workers who were even then employed by larger capitalists. The individual slave, property of one master, is assured an existence, however miserable it may be, because of the master's interest. The individual proletarian, property as it were of the entire bourgeois class which buys his labor only when someone has need of it, has no secure existence. The slave counts as a thing, not as a member of society. Thus, the slave can have a better existence than the proletarian, while the proletarian belongs to a higher stage of social development and, himself, stands on a higher social level than the slave. The slave frees himself when, of all the relations of private property, he abolishes only the relation of slavery and thereby becomes a proletarian; The serf possesses and uses an instrument of production, a piece of land, in exchange for which he gives up a part of his product or part of the services of his labor. The proletarian works with the instruments of production of another, for the account of this other, in exchange for a part of the product. The serf has an assured existence, the proletarian has not. The serf is outside competition, the proletarian is in it. The serf liberates himself in one of three ways: either he runs away to the city and there becomes a handicraftsman; In short, by one route or another, he gets into the owning class and enters into competition. The proletarian liberates himself by abolishing competition, private property, and all class differences. The manufacturing worker of the 16th to the 18th centuries still had, with but few exception, an instrument of production in his own possession -- his loom, the family spinning wheel, a little plot of land which he cultivated in his spare time. The manufacturing worker almost always lives in the countryside and in a more or less patriarchal relation to his landlord or employer; The manufacturing worker is torn out of his patriarchal relation by big industry, loses whatever property he still has, and in this way becomes a proletarian. First, the lower and lower prices of industrial products brought about by machine labor totally destroyed, in all countries of the world, the old system of manufacture or industry based upon hand labor. In this way, all semi-barbarian countries, which had hitherto been more or less strangers to historical development, and whose industry had been based on manufacture, were violently forced out of their isolation. They bought the cheaper commodities of the English and allowed their own manufacturing workers to be ruined. Countries which had known no progress for thousands of years -- for example, India -- were thoroughly revolutionized, and even China is now on the way to a revolution. We have come to the point where a new machine invented in England deprives millions of Chinese workers of their livelihood within a year's time. In this way, big industry has brought all the people of the Earth into contact with each other, has merged all local markets into one world market, has spread civilization and progress everywhere and has thus ensured that whatever happens in civilized countries will have repercussions in all other countries. It follows that if the workers in England or France now liberate themselves, this must set off revolution in all other countries -- revolutions which, sooner or later, must accomplish the liberation of...