1/19 CHEW ON THIS by Christopher Hitchens
http://www.thestranger.com/current/feature2.html
\_ [formatd was all over this thread]
\_ I have a lot of respect for Mr. Hitchens, and his
arguments changed my mind about the war against
the Taliban. He makes good points, and I will
chew on them for a while.
\_ I have a lot of respect for Mr. Hitchens, and his arguments changed
my mind about the war against the Taliban. He makes good points, and
I will chew on them for a while.
\_ Don't you mean war against Islam?
\_ Let's be honest: what's wrong with a war against Islam?
Or my favorite, "this is a war about oil!". Ok, so what?
I can agree to that. I also have no problem with that. Go
live in a cave for a year and tell me it isn't worth it. You
won't even have a bicycle without oil, much less kuro5hin or
slashdot or any of the rest of the leftist too-young-to-get-it
net denizens. Same thing for the Euros who want the yankees
go home. Let em defend themselves with their own budgets.
Go read any press in the world. Read the Arab's own media and
they make it clear they consider themselves at war already.
\_ It's wrong to kill people to save $0.50 on each gallon
of gasoline that you buy. What is your point about "living
in a cave" if we don't get cheap oil? Americans waste gas.
If America wants that, then we should be responsible enough
to pay the price and not get it dishonestly from other
countries. Also, why should young men die to save you
a bit of money? Would you do the same for them?
If this is about nuclear weapons, then the situation is
different. But then again, Bush doesn't have enough
credibility to avoid appearing disingenuous.
\_ Even if this was just about oil (which it is not),
the price of oil doesn't just show up at the pump.
Any increase in the price of oil also shows up in
every store due to the increased cost of shipping
(ground and air). It also shows up in the increased
cost of petrochemical products (plastics, etc.).
Energy efficiency might offset some of the cost
increase, but not all of it. Ultimately the people
who end up being affect by higher oil prices are
ordinary ave americans (the same ones whose kids
are dying for lower oil prices). What it means to
these people is colder winters, less presents under
the christmas tree, fewer shoter vacations, less
\_ "simple decent lifestyle" ha. Americans are buying
SUV's in droves. They make up like 25% of all
new cars. They are expensive and wasteful.
Go over to East Palo Alto. If you don't see
an SUV in the driveway, it will probably
be a Camaro or something.
Also, should American soldiers die for all of
this? I thought they were out to defend freedom
Why don't people fucking LIVE closer to work
instead of expecting American soldiers and
Iraqis to die to maintain their lifestyles?
time with their families because of longer hours or
multiple jobs. Basically, a complete destruction of
of their simple decent lifestyle.
\_ "simple decent lifestyle" ha. Americans are
buying SUV's in droves. They make up like 25% of
all new cars. They are expensive and wasteful.
Go over to East Palo Alto. If you don't see an
SUV in the driveway, it will probably be a Camaro
or something. Also, should American soldiers die
for all of this? I thought they were out to
defend freedom Why don't people fucking LIVE
closer to work instead of expecting American
soldiers and Iraqis to die to maintain their
lifestyles?
\_ the US is the largest producer of oil in the world.
Also the largest importer.
\_ It's politically easier to get oil from Iraq than from
drilling off the California coast or some god forsaken
patch in Alaska.
\_ doofus, those are the wells which are already
drilled and producing oil.
\_ Because a war about reducing the bottom line for the
wealthiest corporations in the world doesn't sound anywhere
near as noble as protecting the citizens of this country.
Our leaders like to sound very noble. Especially when
they send young, dumb kids into combat situations which
their own family was wise or connected enough to keep them
out of.
\_ Bottom line? Yawn. Keep reading the little red book.
It's not about corporations. They don't have a bottom
line. They pass all costs along. It's about your life
style in the short to mid term and your freedom in the
long term.
\_ Actually he means the coming war on Iraq, or should anyway
\_ No, I mean what I say. He had a big split
with The Nation over the war in Afghanistan.
\_ Wow, I thought C.H. was a big Euro Liberal. What happened?
\_ He grew up?
\_ Hitchens is still a big Euro liberal, but he believes that
the defining elements of liberalism are a belief in self-
determination, democracy, freedom of speech, equal rights
and tolerance for others. He is right on the mark here. He
also believes that defending these values is more imporant
than pacifism, or the liberal tendency to try to come to
non-violent solutions to problems. He states that Islamic
societies are opposed to everything that liberals hold
dear, and that a violent aggressive self-defence is
neccessary to protect ourselves and our values. But there is
quite a bit of difference between attacking someone who is
harboring Osama Bin Laden and attacking someone who has done
nothing to you.
\_ I guess we should just let them get a nuke and wait for
them to use it on New York or Washington or SF before we
do something about it.
\_ Iraq is not the Cuban Missile Crisis. They don't have
ICBMs. They don't have nuclear warheads in striking
distance of the capitol. It's yet to be shown that
they have nuclear capability at all. The inspectors
are back in. Let them do their job.
\_ so you're saying it's too early to attack when
he's just trying to get nukes, and we should wait
until he tries for icbm's?
\_ If he wouldn't launch chemical warheads on SCUDs
at Israel, he's not going to send nukes our way
either. He knows the outcome. |
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