Berkeley CSUA MOTD:Entry 27156
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2025/07/09 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
7/9     

2003/1/20-21 [Science/GlobalWarming, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:27156 Activity:insanely high
1/19    CHEW ON THIS by Christopher Hitchens
        http://www.thestranger.com/current/feature2.html
        \_ [formatd was all over this thread]
        \_ I have a lot of respect for Mr. Hitchens, and his
           arguments changed my mind about the war against
           the Taliban. He makes good points, and I will
           chew on them for a while.
        \_ I have a lot of respect for Mr. Hitchens, and his arguments changed
           my mind about the war against the Taliban. He makes good points, and
           I will chew on them for a while.
           \_ Don't you mean war against Islam?
              \_ Let's be honest: what's wrong with a war against Islam?
                 Or my favorite, "this is a war about oil!".  Ok, so what?
                 I can agree to that.  I also have no problem with that.  Go
                 live in a cave for a year and tell me it isn't worth it.  You
                 won't even have a bicycle without oil, much less kuro5hin or
                 slashdot or any of the rest of the leftist too-young-to-get-it
                 net denizens.  Same thing for the Euros who want the yankees
                 go home.  Let em defend themselves with their own budgets.
                 Go read any press in the world.  Read the Arab's own media and
                 they make it clear they consider themselves at war already.
                 \_ It's wrong to kill people to save $0.50 on each gallon
                    of gasoline that you buy.  What is your point about "living
                    in a cave" if we don't get cheap oil?  Americans waste gas.
                    If America wants that, then we should be responsible enough
                    to pay the price and not get it dishonestly from other
                    countries.  Also,  why should young men die to save you
                    a bit of money?  Would you do the same for them?
                    If this is about nuclear weapons, then the situation is
                    different.  But then again,  Bush doesn't have enough
                    credibility to avoid appearing disingenuous.
                        \_ Even if this was just about oil (which it is not),
                           the price of oil doesn't just show up at the pump.
                           Any increase in the price of oil also shows up in
                           every store due to the increased cost of shipping
                           (ground and air). It also shows up in the increased
                           cost of petrochemical products (plastics, etc.).
                           Energy efficiency might offset some of the cost
                           increase, but not all of it. Ultimately the people
                           who end up being affect by higher oil prices are
                           ordinary ave americans (the same ones whose kids
                           are dying for lower oil prices). What it means to
                           these people is colder winters, less presents under
                           the christmas tree, fewer shoter vacations, less
                           \_ "simple decent lifestyle" ha.  Americans are buying
                               SUV's in droves.  They make up like 25% of all
                               new cars.  They are expensive and wasteful.
                               Go over to East Palo Alto.  If you don't see
                               an SUV in the driveway,  it will probably
                                be a Camaro or something.
                                Also,  should American soldiers die for all of
                                this?  I thought they were out to defend freedom
                                Why don't people fucking LIVE closer to work
                                instead of expecting American soldiers and
                                Iraqis to die to maintain their lifestyles?
                           time with their families because of longer hours or
                           multiple jobs. Basically, a complete destruction of
                           of their simple decent lifestyle.
                           \_ "simple decent lifestyle" ha.  Americans are
                              buying SUV's in droves.  They make up like 25% of
                              all new cars.  They are expensive and wasteful.
                              Go over to East Palo Alto.  If you don't see an
                              SUV in the driveway,  it will probably be a Camaro
                              or something.  Also,  should American soldiers die
                              for all of this?  I thought they were out to
                              defend freedom Why don't people fucking LIVE
                              closer to work instead of expecting American
                              soldiers and Iraqis to die to maintain their
                              lifestyles?

                 \_ the US is the largest producer of oil in the world.
                    Also the largest importer.
                    \_ It's politically easier to get oil from Iraq than from
                       drilling off the California coast or some god forsaken
                       patch in Alaska.
                        \_ doofus, those are the wells which are already
                           drilled and producing oil.
                 \_ Because a war about reducing the bottom line for the
                    wealthiest corporations in the world doesn't sound anywhere
                    near as noble as protecting the citizens of this country.
                    Our leaders like to sound very noble.  Especially when
                    they send young, dumb kids into combat situations which
                    their own family was wise or connected enough to keep them
                    out of.
                    \_ Bottom line?  Yawn.  Keep reading the little red book.
                       It's not about corporations.  They don't have a bottom
                       line.  They pass all costs along.  It's about your life
                       style in the short to mid term and your freedom in the
                       long term.
              \_ Actually he means the coming war on Iraq, or should anyway
                \_ No, I mean what I say. He had a big split
                   with The Nation over the war in Afghanistan.
         \_ Wow, I thought C.H. was a big Euro Liberal.  What happened?
            \_ He grew up?
            \_ Hitchens is still a big Euro liberal, but he believes that
               the defining elements of liberalism are a belief in self-
               determination, democracy, freedom of speech, equal rights
               and tolerance for others. He is right on the mark here. He
               also believes that defending these values is more imporant
               than pacifism, or the liberal tendency to try to come to
               non-violent solutions to problems. He states that Islamic
               societies are opposed to everything that liberals hold
               dear, and that a violent aggressive self-defence is
               neccessary to protect ourselves and our values. But there is
               quite a bit of difference between attacking someone who is
               harboring Osama Bin Laden and attacking someone who has done
               nothing to you.
                \_ I guess we should just let them get a nuke and wait for
                   them to use it on New York or Washington or SF before we
                   do something about it.
                   \_ Iraq is not the Cuban Missile Crisis.  They don't have
                      ICBMs.  They don't have nuclear warheads in striking
                      distance of the capitol.  It's yet to be shown that
                      they have nuclear capability at all.  The inspectors
                      are back in.  Let them do their job.
                      \_ so you're saying it's too early to attack when
                         he's just trying to get nukes, and we should wait
                         until he tries for icbm's?
                         \_ If he wouldn't launch chemical warheads on SCUDs
                            at Israel, he's not going to send nukes our way
                            either.  He knows the outcome.
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7/9     

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www.thestranger.com/current/feature2.html
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