12/25   "A couple of years ago, the biggest American corporations would have
        considered it risky to outsource mission-critical work to India,
        but it is now becoming a common-sense proposition."  --Bill Gates
        Keep fighting those H1-B visas, guys; maybe you'll be able to beat
        the ocean back with a broom.  -tom
                \_ I've worked on multiple projects that involve people
                   in India. The only "mission-critical" work that you
                   can have them reliably do is stuff like QA (monkey
                   push the button style) or minor sysadmin type work.
                   If you have one of these types of jobs then maybe
                   you should be worried.
        \_ it's unclear to me. do you support H1-B's or are you saying that
           we're losing an important battle?
           \_ Fighting H1-B's is just encouraging companies to move their
              whole operation to India.  -tom
              \_ "Turn around, bend over, relax and think of Bill Gates."
              \_ As someone who has never worked in industry you wouldn't
                 understand that offshore projects are 99% doomed to utter
                 failure.  The successful ones only work with *rock* solid
                 contracts, *top notch* American managers, and lots of travel
                 and daily communication between the indians and the Americans
                 running the project.  I've been there, done that, etc.  They
                 can try it and after multiple multi million dollar losses and
                 dead projects, they'll abandon india for serious work.  They
                 can keep the monkey QA jobs.  Any company moving critical
                 work to india is doomed.  Since this started with a BG quote,
                 let me ask this, "how much critical work has MS moved to
                 india?"  Thought so.
                 \_ I won't bother responding to your head-in-the-sand
                    comments, but just will point out that I worked in
                    industry for 8 years.  -tom
                    \_ Did you ever graduate, tom?
                       \_ No, but how is that relevant?  -tom
                          \_ You seem bitter.  It might be having an negative
                             impact on your perspective.
                             \_ I've never been a matriculated student at
                                Cal, so I don't know why I'd be bitter for
                                not graduating.  -tom
                                \_ Who said Cal had anything to do with it?
                                   That's a weak rhetorical dodge.
                    \_ You won't bother responding because you'd just open
                       yourself to being shot down again as we'd find out
                       you've never been associated with any sort of over
                       seas projects therefore your 'experience' is
                       meaningless in this context.  My comments are not head
                       in the sand.  They are the reality of having personally
                       witnessed multiple overseas projects waste 10's of
                       millions of dollars to produce *nothing* but welfare
                       for incompetent and veru sub-par indian coder monkeys.
                       \_ I think Tom counts grovelling at L&S as "industry"
                          \_ I worked for GE for 8 years.  -tom
                             \_ How DARE you counter baseless ad hominem with
                                facts!  -mice
                                \_ He still hasn't claimed any personal
                                   knowledge of how overseas projects really
                                   work or having worked with such people
                                   himself.  "X many years in industry" does
                                   not mean he knows anything at all about the
                                   topic here which is that overseas projects
                                   are 99% fucked.
                 \_ I'd be remiss not to comment that most projects are doomed
                    from the beginning, offshore or not. However I disagree
                    that fighting H1-Bs is pointless. There is a case against
                    having workers being exploited locally. There are many
                    companies that don't farm out work offshore. People who
                    currently live in America have the right to fight to keep
                    their jobs by opposing H1-Bs.