10/14   anybody have experience whistle blowing  or getting a news organization
        to write about something using internal info?  My company is laying off
        american workers here and hiring a shitload of indian programmers.
        What the fuck?  I want more coverage on shit like this.
           \_ Are they laying off workers in the US and hiring them for the
              office in india?
        \_ Time to look for another job. Based on my experience with h1b fops
           (as opposed to h1bs with grad degrees from a US school), they are
           probably the only group of programmers on earth worse than the
           '1337 GN00/L1NUX crowd. Placing products in h1b hands invariably
           means buggy code that is delivered late. Buggy products that are
           late don't sell well in most markets, which will lead to the
           untimely demise of your company (sold or bankrupt). Save yourself,
           look for another job.
        \_ on another note, what do you think of illegal immigrants
           \_ By "Indian" the OP meant Indians with H1-Bs, not Indian-Americans,
              right?  Then why would the Chronicle find such a story
           being charged in-state tuition at state funded colleges
           in California?
           \_ If we charge them out-of-state tuition then we might
              hurt their feelings which would be bad.
           \_ duh, ship them home.  fucking ridiculous.
        \_ what about http://www.fuckedcompany.com
           \_ heh, one way or another they'll be listed on fc eventually.
        \_ Your best bet is probably Salon. Any mainstream news organization
           is going to avoid stories like these. A friend of mine wrote a
           story on this topic for The Chronicle and the next week her boss
           called in to his office and told her she would be fired if she
           kept writing controversial stuff like that.
           \_ I wonder if your friend is covered by any sort of whistleblower
              laws?  What company was it?
           \_ By "Indian" the OP meant Indians with H1-Bs, not Indian-
              Americans, right?  Then why would the Chronicle find such a story
              objectionable?
              \_ H1Bs are only to be used when local employees don't exist.
                 \_ Don't be naive.  It never works like that.
                 \_ Exactly, and so why would the Chronicle find it offensive
                    to expose this employer's bad behavior?  [formatd]
                    \_ I got the feeling that it had annoyed some important
                       advertisers.
        \_ Maybe try to get the laid-off people to sue.
           \_ After lawyer and uncle Sam, you arent going to get much out
              of the law suit even if you won, at the expense of no one
              ever want to hire you in the future.
        \_ what's wrong with that?
           \_ for starters its against the law....
              \- What law is it against? --psb
                 \_ You can't replace citizens with H1b's.  The law that
                    creates the H1b program defines when they can be legally
                    used.  Replacing Americans isn't it.
                    \- maybe you should become a steel worker.
                       \_ maybe the scumbags who are illegally letting in
                          foreigners should following the fucking law and get
                          punished when they violate it?
                          \- what do you mean by "scumbags illegally letting
                          in foreigners"? if you mean cracking down on say
                          emplyers hiring illegal immigrant farm workers,
                          domestic help and such, i agree with you ... that
                          is certainly more efficient, but politcally naturally
                          it is unpalatable to crack down on the white collar
                          nanny-hiring set ... as it is easier to go after
                          poor drug dealers rather than raiding suburban
                          coke parties. i thought you were talking about
                          is taking at the moment? What if an American worker is
                          available for say $70K to do the job that H1Bs will
                          do for only $40/year? There are companies that
                          legal aliens? --psb
                           \_ If an H1b is allowed in to the country to replace
                              an American worker that is an illegal use of the
                              H1b visa, therefore the H1b person is here
                              illegally and the company sponsor has broken the
                              law.  The first should be deported and the other
                              needs some legal punishment.  That's what I mean.
                vote themselves in as politicians as soon as they get 51% of the
                voting population, then vote to change the flag and the national
                language. It's winning the war without fighting.  -ax
                       \_ By the way, how can you tell whether an H1B worker is
                          replacing an American or taking a job that one else
                          is taking at the moment? What if an American worker
                          is available for say $70K to do the job that H1Bs
                          will do for only $40/year? There are companies that
                          wouldn't afford to hire an american for $70K/year
                          anyways but I can imagine that there might be
                          companies that can afford to pay $70K per year to an
                          American worker but still try to get a "free ride" by
                          hiring an H1B worker.
                          \_ It's based on the concept of 'market rate' not
                             what some cheap ass company can 'afford'.
                \_ Exactly.  What's wrong with replacing every single worker in
                this country with a lower cost imported worker, then have them
                vote themselves in as politicians as soon as they get 51% of
                the voting population, then vote to change the flag and the
                national language. It's winning the war without fighting.  -ax
                http://www.zazona.com/ShameH1B/Horror.htm
                \- h1b workers cannot vote [which i think is proper]. also
                   "infiltrating the electorate"  and then "voting for change
           have one million IT jobs lost, and there are only one million IT jobs
           left. So you fire the one million US workers since they are "more
           expensive" and keep the one miliion H1B's.  Fair?  -ax
                   is probably a lot less efficient than just lobbying with $
                   oh wait you are only interesting in restricting the
                   influence of poor people without the money to lobby? --psb
                   \_ Anyone who shows at a polling place can vote.  When I
                      voted the last few times (each in a different county), I
                      simply pointed at my name on their list and voted.
        \_ there was a lot of h1b bashing on craigslist, but one tidbit of
           info was a suit against Sun for laying off am. workers but keeping
           and/or hiring foreign workers. I'm sure that you if gave real hard
           evidence to those being laid off that they could sue the company
           for lotsa $$$. rather than face publicity, a company usually will
           settle with the employees that sued. some employees sign away their
           right to sue when they agree to a severance package. give these
           people a smoking gun now before it's too late.
        \_ Imagine this scenario:  There are one million IT workers.  The
           economy doubles, one million H1B visa workers are added.  Now there
           are two million IT workers.  The economy goes in the toilet, we now
           have one million IT jobs lost, and there are only one million IT
           jobs left. So you fire the one million US workers since they are
           "more expensive" and keep the one miliion H1B's.  Fair?  -ax
           \_ please try to constrain your scenarios to something approaching
              reality.  Companies for the most part don't prefer H1B workers
              to "real 'merricuns", which is why H1B applications have dropped
              drastically since the dotcom bust.  -tom
              \_ how the hell would *you* know?  you *ever* worked outside the
                 cozy warm fuzzy walls of academia?
           \_ We should have formed a union when the economy was strong. Then
              we'd be like those dockworkers. -ausman
              \_ Some folks talked about it at the time.  Where were you?
                 \_ You should have contacted me. I could never find anyone
                    else interested.
           \_ Partha seems to think so.
           \_ Of course not, but is firing one million H1Bs and not firing
              a single American fair?  Is it feasible, and would that make
              sense?  If you are an employer and you have two employees,
              1 an H1B and the other an American citizen or PR.  Both of
              them have worked at the company for 3 years.  Let's assume that
              H1B is the better employee in terms of skills and dedication.
              So you decide to layoff the American citizen.  Would you
              consider that as breaking the law?
              \_ Is it fair to fire everyone H1b before a single American?
                 Yes.  That's what the law says.  That's the risk the H1b
                 takes when coming here on an H1b. (or is supposed to be
                 taking)  Your hypothetical situation is not what the H1b
                 covers or has anything to do with.  Of course you keep your
                 H1b DBA and lay off the American janitor.
                 \_ I disagree.  I think it should only be during hiring
                    when the American should have preference over an H1B
                    worker.  The preference should not exist when deciding
                    whom to layoff.  When hiring, American workers are,
                    in principle, protected by the requirement that a H1B
                    worker's salary meets prevailing wages requirements.
                    Breaking the law: "Hiring a H1B worker to replace an
                    American citizen."  Not breaking the law: "Firing
                    an American citizen instead of a H1B worker based
                    on performance and merit."
                    \_ You realise that in an at-will job market like CA, your
                       plan has about, oh, 5.7 zillion loop holes in it?  And
                       that's still not the law.
           \- what do you suggest is fair in that scenario? seniority only?
              cut everyone back to 20hrs/week? i realize this often fails
              but i think companies do have some sense to look at efficiency
              not just expense ... so if you are 50% more productive but
              make 30% more than a h1b, then you should be secure. now if
              the problem is you arent that much more productive, then you
              do have a problem. but except for the nationlistic aspect this
              is the same thing middle-aged people with "20yrs experience"
              whine about when some kid whose only friend is his PS2 replaces
              him ... because the kid is willing to work until 10pm and on
              weekends in exchange for free tshirts and soda. --psb
              \_ The H1b is supposed to be making market rate.  If he's not
                 then we have yet another illegal hiring by the company.
                 \- 30% difference is within "market rate" i believe.
                    we're not talking about shipping a job overseas where
                    they may be making less by an order of mag.
                    \_ 30% spread for the same job title/skills/experience is
                       *nothing* like market rate.
        \_ Americans should come first, that is the point.  What other
           \- how about "white people"? should white people come first too?
           country shows us any real generosity?  Why should we be making
           citizens of other countries rich?  -ax
                    \- i wouldnt chalk this up to "generosity" but one
                       interpretation of part ofthe h1b phenomenon is
                       the indian govy is subsidizing the education
                       for us high tech workers. --psb
                       \_ say what?  how do you figure *that*?
           \_ cuz like dude it's all one world. you should spend your time
              creating free software with no compensation so these other
              countries can use that too.
              \_ D00D U R 50 R1GH7! FR33 D3B14N GN00/L1NUX 4 3V3RY1!
        \_ While all of you fuckheads were arguing I went out and started a
           company, sold it and am now typing this from my beach house in
           Tahiti.  Just thought you should know.
                \_ How fast is the internet in Tahiti? Do you have a
                   fiber line or are you stuck with a sat. uplink?
                   \_ I have a T-1, but it's pretty damn pricey.
                   \_ He got his T1 from me.  I'm running a few sat. phones
                      from the beach house he's renting from me and told him
                      it was a full T1, just slow because of the distance.
           \_ are you the guy who wrote OrCAD on his apple ][ in 6th grade?