Berkeley CSUA MOTD:Entry 24558
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2025/04/03 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
4/3     

2002/4/24 [Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:24558 Activity:insanely high
4/23    Le Pen must be doing something right.  Every 'group' in France is
        really pissed off. news.independent.co.uk/europe/story.jsp?story=288329
        \_ yeah, every 'group', like immigrants and jews. some people
           might regard it as a bad thing that the far right is ridsing
           again in europe.  go back to freeper, you fucking shithead.
           \_ bad troll!  BAD! TROLL!
           \_ Ridsing?  Oh, you mean rising.  No, you're confused.  Nazi-ism
              is the far left, not right.  Read up on the philosophies and it
              will become plain that total state control of all industry,
              education and other aspects of daily life is the antithesis of
              what conservatism is about.  Freeper?  Never read it.  Fucking
              shithead?  Resorting to very weak and 6th grade level personal
              attack only shows you have no real points or ideas.  Anytime
              you'd like to try again without ranting like an ignorant 6th
              grader I'll be here to help you out.
              \_ Nazi'ism is on the far left? Hahahaha. And Orwell was
                 a conservative, right?
                 a conservative, right? And Buchanan is actually a closet
                 liberal. You can make up your own definition for words,
                 but don't expect to be able to talk to anyone else.
                \_ Le Pen is not a fascist.  He's a reactionary bully, and
                   he won because he picked up on topics that the traditional
                   centrist parties were too complacent to deal with (have
                   you read the socialist and RPR election platforms?  Note
                   any similarities or slightly bland statements?)  He's also
                   had a lot of support from Jews in France, interestingly
                   enough, because of a lot of the anti-semitic vandalism from
                   north African immigrants.  Also, he won 17% of the vote...
                   ...out of the 28% of the electorate that actually bothered
                   to go vote.  Pay close attention to the parallels to US
                   third-rate candidates, who won because not enough people
                   went and voted.  Whining after the fact is easy...can you
                   say "serves you fucking right?"  -John
                \_ http://slate.msn.com/?id=2064643 - danh
        \_ Why isn't anyone condeming the Palestinians (Muslims) for sending
           their early teen children strapped with TNT belts to blow
           themselves up.  It is absolutely disgusting.  Arafat and Muslims,
           together with Kofi Anan and the UN have completely twisted
           any sense of the morality in West vs Mideast relations.
           Where is the revulsion (from the media for example)? Impressionable
           children are indoctrinated to commit suicide, that is noble?
           \_ It all depends on whether you believe in the cause.
                \_ No, there is NO excuse period! It is evil in its purest
                   form.  Any practicers of that kind of barbarism
                   deserve to be wiped from the face of the earth.  Picture
                   when you have a child preparing him to commit suicide-
                   strapping on the belt, dressing him, assuaging his
                   fear and trepidation, and finally sending him off.
                   \_ So collective punishment is good?
                   \_ "...deserve to be wiped from the face of the earth."
                      Answering barbarism with barbarism is not the answer.
                   \_ Firstly, from what I read, they are like "late
                      teens", not "early teens".  Have you seen the movie
                      Spartacus?  Kid was given weapon to fight against
                      the Roman legions in the movie.  Not many people
                      objected to that, cause they were supposedly
                      fighting for "FREEDOM"!
          \_ Many, many people, including Arafat, have condemned attacks
             on civilians.
2025/04/03 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
4/3     

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Cache (8192 bytes)
slate.msn.com/?id=2064643
French Twist Le Pen terrifies Europe by violating its political taboos. By Anne Applebaum Posted Tuesday, April 23, 2002, at 9:42 AM PT 30 Jean-Marie Le Pen Jean-Marie Le Pen Outside of France, Jean-Marie Le Pen is probably best-known for a single phrase. Monsieur Le Pen's surprise success in the first round of the French presidential elections on Sunday--he defeated the prime minister, Lionel Jospin, and came a close second to the sitting president, Jacques Chirac--had very little to do with anybody's sympathy for Hitler. And although "racist" is a word correctly applied both to Le Pen and to his party, the 31 National Front, I don't believe Le Pen's receipt of 17 percent of the vote means that the French have suddenly become more racist than anybody else, either. This wasn't an election about racism, exactly--but it was an election about taboos. To be precise, there are two large taboos in French public life. The taboos are immigration and the creeping economic and political power of "Europe," meaning the European Union. At the same time, no mainstream politician wants to address them: The French center-left and the French center-right remain united in their belief that noisy opposition to immigration is racist and that serious criticism of the EU is nationalist. For that reason, both issues have been pushed to the margins, left for the extremists like Le Pen: He is vehemently opposed to immigration, and he vehemently objects to France's participation in the European Union. In France, as in many European countries, immigration isn't so much an issue in principle as it is an issue in practice. In principle, the French have a far more open definition of nationality than, say, their German neighbors, and a far more liberal definition of citizenship. While even third-generation immigrants do not necessarily find it easy to become German citizens, France does naturalize many of the 100,000 legal immigrants who enter the country every year, and about 6 percent of the population is foreign-born. In practice, however, many French do object to their large North African immigrant population, some 5 million people. Rightly or wrongly, many believe the North Africans have failed to assimilate. Rightly or wrongly, many believe they take jobs away from natives. Rightly or wrongly, many link their presence to rising crime. It may well be, as defenders of French immigration policy contend, that none of these statements is true and that immigration is slowing down in any case. But if French politicians make it unacceptable to discuss such things in the mainstream, then the discussion will take place on the far-right fringes. As I 35 wrote in January, the absence of open opposition to the new European currency still remains mysterious, at least to me--and nowhere more so than in France. A high percentage of French legislation now originates in Brussels; Given that this is the country that virtually invented nationalism, it's not surprising that many in France object to the French loss of control over French internal affairs. When they do so out loud, however, mainstream politicians and the mainstream press accuse them of being "anti-European"--a terrible insult, on par with "fascist"--leaving them with no one to vote for except Le Pen. There is a third taboo in France as well--although this is one shared by most French politicians, from Le Pen to Chirac to Jospin, and most French voters, too. This is the taboo on the vigorous advocacy of liberal economic reforms--the elements of what the French call "Anglo-Saxon" capitalism. In fact, there have been liberal reforms in France, including privatizations--usually instituted quietly, by left-wing politicians--but not enough to shake France convincingly out of recession. One isn't allowed to say so in polite society, however, so unemployment continues to rise, without any explanation or apparent solution, and insecurity increases, bringing yet more votes for Le Pen. I exaggerate, slightly, to make a point: There are some more or less mainstream euro-skeptic, economically liberal French politicians. Nevertheless, there aren't enough of them to prevent Le Pen from making use of immigration, Europe, and fears of unemployment to win votes. In this, Le Pen is strikingly similar to Jrg Haider, whose occasional words of praise for Nazi Austria also led to street demonstrations and anti-fascist marches when his Freedom Party joined the Austrian coalition government two years ago. Haider was fighting against "left-wing" Social Democrats and "right-wing" Christian Democrats who had been serving together in coalition governments so long they had ceased to have any real political or economic differences. Le Pen's victory came in a contest between the "left-wing" Jospin and the "right-wing" Chirac, two men who had also shared power, "cohabiting" as prime minister and president. Don't overlook the fact that the Trotskyites got 11 percent of the vote in last weekend's presidential poll as well: Above all, this election was a protest against the blandness, the interchangeability, and the suspected corruption of the two centrist parties. Although Chirac will certainly win in the final round, the story may not end here. The unthinkable has now happened twice: The supposedly marginal far-right has scored damaging blows on the mainstream politicians of both Austria and France. As I 36 wrote last month, a number of European countries have avoided a similar calamity through the rejuvenation of center-right parties (most recently Denmark, Italy, and Portugal), which advocate liberal economic reforms, on the American model, more restricted immigration, and a more vigorous debate about the European Union. The rejuvenation of the left--on the somewhat idiosyncratic model of the British Labor Party--might work just as well. If politicians refuse to address their voters' concerns--however dark and unacceptable those concerns may be--sooner or later, the voters will make them pay for it. Related on the Web Click 37 here for a Brookings Institute paper examining the real facts of French immigration policy. Anne Applebaum is a member of the editorial board of the Washington Post. Her book, Gulag: A History, will be published at the end of April. Photograph of Jean-Marie Le Pen by Jack Dabaghian/Reuters/Corbis. Join the Fray, our reader discussion forum 47 POST A MESSAGE 48 READ MESSAGES Reader Comments From The Fray: Ms. Applebaum's third taboo--the French aversion to open advocacy of free market economics--is the one that makes the least sense. Obviously, anywhere millions of people would be inconvenienced by change, politicians will tend to talk of it in whispers if at all. This is why American Congressmen can speak at length about sending thousands of troops to the Hindu Kush to battle Saudi-financed terrorists but would sooner have roll call votes on Mondays than consider raising the federal tax on gasoline. French farmers surely benefit from massive subsidies and trade protection, but food is more expensive; Yet instead of having the chance to vote for a frankly free-market, Yankophile political party the French vote in their millions for Le Pen and for parties inspired by Leon Trotsky. I could begin to understand this if Trotsky had been French, or had done anything for France. It would make more sense for a French political party to be inspired by George Patton, who at least spoke the language and threw the Germans out of the country. Or Lafayette, who actually was French and probably didn't think much about market economics, but might have if he'd been born 200 years later. Yes, it's past time for a French American Party--a political party dedicated to remaking France in the image of the United States. It probably wouldn't ever claim majority support, but could be a crucial factor in assembling governing coalitions. If that were the case, then I would have expected voters to turn out in droves to protest at the polls. The biggest story in France during the last year has been the skyrocketing crime rate--which has made Paris more dangerous than New York City. That problem, which neither Jospin nor Chirac has been able to deal wi...