Berkeley CSUA MOTD:Entry 24239
Berkeley CSUA MOTD
2021/12/03 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular

2002/3/27 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/Japan, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:24239 Activity:insanely high
3/26    With regards to reparations, anyone who receives $$$ should be stripped
        of citizenship and forced to return to the country of most likely
        origin. These people have benefitted from coming here, despite the
        trials of their ancestors. If they take the money then they need
        to go back where they would've been as a condition. --dim
        \_ i learned everything i know about african history from
           the iron maiden album "number of the beast," so i disagree.
        \_ Did we send those Japenese-Americans who were paid reparations
           back to Japan?
           \_ The legal aspects of this case are vastly different. The
              reparations was compensation for violation of their 3rd
              amendment rights. These people were FULL CITIZENS at the
              time thier constitutional rights were abriged. They had
              a legitmate legal claim to be compensated for illegal
              search and seizure of thier property and possessions
              without due process.
              In the case of those asking for reparations for slavery,
              the plantifs have no case since they were not guarenteed
              any rights until the passage of the 13th amendment. (By
              the 3/5ths compromise slaves counted as people for census
              purposes but were not protected under the bill of rights).
              The reparations for slavery have already been paid, in the
              lives of the men and women who fought and died in the civil
              war, in the passage of the 13th, 14th and 15th amendments
              and in the end of segreation. That the original intent of
              the founders (all men are created equal) is present in
              modern america and is as prevasive nowhere else in the world
              should be enough for anyone of any race. A handout cheapens
              and renders impotent the Freedom and Liberty that has been
              gained and defended. - !OP
              \_ I'm undecided on the issue of reparations, but it's clearly
                 ridiculous to claim that slaves have no right to reparations
                 because slavery was legal at the time.  Their claim is about
                 moral rights.  -tom
                 \_ Moral rights? Property has no moral rights, no rights
                    period. Yes slavery was a terrible thing, but it was
                                   positive for any of those inititally brought
                                   over...  though you raise an interesting
                                   point...  I'd be curious to see the
                                   statistics comparing the percentage of
                                   people killed in, or travelling to, the US,
                                   vs. the percentage killed in Africa during
                                   a comparable time frame. And it is only
                                   arguably positive for any ancestors when
                                   you consider the conditions that most
                    legal when it happened. They have no claim to compensation
                    because the there was no crime committed. I think that
                    these people should get on with thier lives instead of
                    sitting around pretending to be perpetual victims and
                    childern of slaves. You are what you believe yourself
                    to be, if you think that you are a victim, you will be.
                    \_ There's no claim against a slave owner, who was
                       within the law.  There may be a claim against the
                       government for enacting immoral laws.  (The fact
                       that the government says it's legal doesn't absolve
                       it of its own moral responsibility). -tom

                       \_ Legal precident is that the just compensation
                          of the enactment of a immoral law is to repeal
                          the law in question. As the laws in question
                          have been repealed, there is no basis for this
                          \_ That's overly simplistic.  It's not only
                             that the law was immoral, it's that it caused
                             damage, and a claim for damages certainly could
                             have merit.  A claim for damage 150 years after
                             the fact, perhaps not.  -tom
                    \_ [ comment about holocaust reparations being paided
                         dispite the holocaust being legal at the time time
                         inadvertently deleted, sorry ]
                        \_ Reparations paid by eurpoeans to other eurpoeans,
                           is not sufficient legal precident in the US.
                           I am talking about crimes commited in territory
                           where the Consitution is valid.
              \_ Uhm, where does it say its a 3rd amendment issue?
                 \_ Internment was a 3rd amendment issue. JAs had a
                    legal claim. Slaves cannot make any legal claim
                    under the law as it existed when they were wronged.
                    \_ I misread the indenting.  Nevermind.  Makes sense.
           \_ maybe. but that was different, it was wartime. wartime rules
              are different than peacetime rules.
              \_ yeah, fucking people over because it's wartime is somehow
                 a more outright offense then doing it peacetime.  whatever.
                 \_ Yes, at least there was some rationale in WWII, however
                    cooked up, for locking up American citizens because
                    they were of Japanese ancestry.   --Jon
                 and not the euro-boat-people. Think about if the
                 same things were committed today and you'll see some of
                 the flaws in your logic.
                    \_ There wasn't any rationale in any other cases? I'm
                       assuming that dim's ignorant original comment was
                       in regards to slavery? Are you trying to say that
                       there weren't countless "scientists" and philos-
                       ophers making justifications for why it was ok
                       to enslave brown people all around the globe? - rory
                       \_ Excuse me, but I think that if you think about it
                          you will find my comment enlightening. Has slavery
                          helped or hurt the people in question? --dim
                          \_ I have thought about it, and I never said your
                             post wasn't enlightening... It is enlightening
                             of the fact that you are ignorant and/or
                             racist. Are you really trying to argue that
                             slavery has had a net positive effect on
                             Africans brought to America?       - rory
                             \_ It certainly was a net positive for their
                                descendants (they live in a prosperous society
                                vs whatever african shithole they originally
                                came from), and it may have been a net positive
                                for some of them (in a sense that they would
                                have been executed as POWs in some tribal war
                                otherwise, or perhaps died of malaria).
                \_ wow when did david horowitz get a CSUA account? - danh
                                \_ It's a net negative - hundreds of years
                                   of slavery, crappy lives up till the
                                   the Civil Rights movement.  And it is
                                   the black people themselves who
                                   stood up, fought for their rights, and
                                   made better lives for themselves.
                                   Incredible to see rightwing fuckheads
                                   talking out of the their arses and
                                   trying to give credit to the slave
                                   traders for what is good in the lives
                                   of today's African Americans.
                                   \_ Excuse me but the civil rights movement
                                      was a Republican agenda item.  You still
                                      have sheet/hood wearing ex-KKK members in
                                      Congress right *now*.  Thanks for adding
                                      your biased agenda driven bit of weak
                                      historical revisionism to the motd.
                                   \_ Yup, Abraham Lincoln was black.
                                      \_ That Abe was a good man doesn't
                                         negate the fact that it was a net
                                         negative.  As for standing up for
                                         themselves, I am referring to the
                                         Civil Rights movement, not during
                                         the Civil War period.
                                         \_ Oops, sorry.
                                \_ Are you kidding me?? It certainly *wasn't*
                                   positive for any of those inititally
                                   brought over...  though you raise an
                                   interesting point...  I'd be curious to
                                   see the statistics comparing the percentage
                                   of people killed in, or travelling to, the
                                   US, vs. the percentage killed in Africa
                                   during a comparable time frame. And it is
                                   only arguably positive for any ancestors
                                   when you consider the conditions that most
                                   blacks were living in for the larger part
                                   of the last century and a half... and the
                                   fact that I'm sure that almost all brought
                                   over were perfectly content, and that most
                                   tribal warfare was caused by colonizing
                                   countries anyway.
                                   \_ The evil Westerners made the poor
                                      africans fight each other?  What, they
                                      have no free will?  Do you have a source
                                      on this last point?  People often forget
                                      that 'people of color' can be just as
                                      nasty as the blackest (whitest?) western
                                      imperialist pig-dog.
                                      \_ This is always the stupidest argument
                                         put forth.
                                      \_ People also often forget that
                                                European countries.  If you
                                                disagree, feel free to go
                                         before colonization, and subsequent
                                         "development" by former colonizers,
                                         Africa did not consist of formal
                                         nation-states at all, but rather
                                         loose tribal nations. These coexisted
                                         in relative peace (compared to how
                                         things are now). Now you tell me
                                         what all this "tribal warfare" is
                                         about...               - rory
                                         (Hint: details of the arbitrary
                                          borders imposed on the continent,
                                          and who gets to be the recipient
                                          of all the western development
                                          \_ Talk to the British and their Euro
                                             allies about the fucked up borders
                                             created in Africa to intentionally
                                             cause chaos and worsen tribal
                                             warfare.  This was not an American
                                             action.  We were a bunch of total
                                             world nobodies when this all went
                                             down.  The historical revisionism
                                             on the motd is sickening.  If you
                                             can't make a point without the
                                             outright *lying* then you don't
                                             have a point and should go away
                                             and shut the fuck up.  Thank you.
                                             \_ This whole subthread is
                                                pointless.  That US is better
                                                than African nations is
                                                besides the point.  US is
                                                also better than all the
                                                European and Asian countries.
                                                If you disagree, feel free to
                                                go home.
                                   \_ That argument assumes the slavers knew
                                      that the slaves would be better off in
                                      the new world. Since tens of thousands
                                      died enroute and tens of thousands died
                                      at the hands of their owners, this would
                                      be a very poor point to make.
        \_ We have benefited from them being here too. Should we therefore
           go back to wherever we came from?
           \_ Of course we have. That is why we are paying them. Then they
              need to leave. --dim
              \_ You shell out my $9m and I'm outta here!  Be glad to go!
                 \_ To, say, Nigeria? Doubt it.
                   \_ have you any idea what $9m can buy in NIgeria???
                   \_ I'm off to the slums of eastern europe where my peoples
                      came from... *with* my $9m bucks!  Gladly.  As soon as
                      that money clears I'm soooo out of here.
              \_ No, I think dim should go back to where s/he came from, but
                 dim's money stays here. That's more fair.
        \_ I totally agree that reparations are impractical when both the
           criminals and the victims are long dead.  In the case of
           Japanese-American internees, it made some sense since the
           the reparations were paid to actual victims.  Having said that,
           it's kind of funny when you  see people so ready to draw a
           line between themselves and the crimes committed by their
           ancestors, and in the very next breadth, they want to send
           other people "home" because these people's ancestors came later
           then their ancestors, seemingly saying that they have more
           right to be here simply because their ancestors came earlier.
           \_ I only want to send the people home who want the money, not
              all of the "victims". Capiche? --dim
              \_ First their "home" is here. Second, then those who
                 "benefited", the perpetrators/benefited should leave
                 unless they pay. but you can argue that is all of us in
                 some way, even those who just arrived yesterday. However
                 you a very confused if you argue that their
                 descendants are better off. You are mixing up your idea
                 "of going home" with reparations. You are missing the
                 big picture. If their ancestors were not exploited
                 and perhaps let to live/work/immigrate freely they
                 may have been the ones running the country today
                                        \_ hahahhahahahhah! yeah right!
                                           \_ michael jordan, oprah
                 and not the euro-boat-people. In any case, you cannot
                 put a condition onto people because Americans are free to
                 live where they want to. Think about if the same
                 things were committed today and you'll see some
                 of the flaws in your logic. It does not follow.
                 They are not related. That said, I agree reparations
                 are not going to work. The only thing possibly more
                 un-feasible is your plan!
        \_ thank you...
        \_ Even if both parties were alive, the claim would be on a poor
           legal footing.  They're seeking reparations for something that
           was legal at the time.  I suspect that such reparations would
           be deemed unconstitutional on an ex-post-facto basis.
           \_ Doesn't matter if it was "legal at the time".
              \_ Of course it does, duh.  Go look up the "ex post facto"
                 concept.  Jesus Christ some people around here are so dumb.
                 \_ You can argue it but ex post facto does not matter
                 \_ It was legal to keep innocent men behind bars
                    but after they are freed, they still sue.
           \_ CAN'T WE ALL JUST GET ALONG?!?
2021/12/03 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular

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