3/16    Re: Politburo minutes-- what's the deal with alexf and no more
        e190 requirements for EECS majors?
        \_ The minutes were somewhat misleading. I made a public threat to
           drop out of the EECS major based exclusively on the E190
           requirement, with a crowd of ~50 EECS honors students and the
           department chairs listening. This was enough to initiate a
           discussion in the crowd whereby the chairs were unequivocally
           told that E190 is a bad idea, and both agreed that "something
           should probably be done about this." I never actually carried
           out the threat, but the chairs got more than a mouthful, and
           out the threat, but the chairs got more than an earful, and
           will probably get a more organized push at the faculty retreat.
           If all goes well, there's a fair probability that the E190 req
           will eventually be reformed or just go away. But don't hold
           your breath quite yet. -alexf
         \_ not to belittle your role in the eecs department
            (what it may be), but why should they care if one
            person drops out of their department?
            \_ That's a fair question, of course, and one that I do not
               feel comfortable answering fully on the motd. I do believe
               I've accummulated a bit of a reputation in the department, at
               least to the point that a move such as the above would attract
               substantial attention. This correlates reasonably with the
               reaction of at least Prof. Sastry (current EECS chair) at
               the dinner, and, I believe, would be similar for a number
               of others. -alexf
               \_ wait, i thought you were a math grad student
                  \_ Err? No, not unless there's something I don't know
                     about... Last time I checked, I was still an
                     undergrad (and mostly in EECS). -alexf
               \_ What is E190?
                  \_ "Technical Communication", a required class for everyone
                     in the College of Engineering.
           \_ So *why* is E190 a bad idea, exactly?  I took 190 voluntarily in
              1997; while I probably could've done just fine in later life
              without it, I found the course quite useful in helping me improve
              my clarity and succinctness while presenting technical material.
              Other people in my class entered the course as barely functional
              communicators, and left *vastly* improved.  Plus, E190 was
              fantastically easy.  Has 190 become more onerous since I took it,
              or is this an "this course is beneath me"/freedom-to-choose
              issue?  Just wondering.  -- kahogan
            \_ I took it in '99 and found it to be a good course that most EECS
               majors could benefit from. Just make sure you take it with the
               right prof (in other words: Phillipi)
               \_ I have him, and the only thing I've seen anyone learn yet
                  is how to be sarcarstic and belittling to others. -chialea
            \_ Yes, and yes. From talking from the few older people who
               bothered taking it before it became a requirement, it seems
               that the quality has indeed plummetted since then. Of the
               people who take the class now, 90-95% find it utterly useless
               and unproductive. Those who can write don't gain anything,
               and those who can't mostly stay that way. The instructors
               are, by common consensus, epsilon semi-morons, the material
               is largely, well, absent, and the grading is too
               indistinguishable from /dev/random. Fantastically easy?
               Perhaps in some sections, not in most. I and most others I've
               talked to find it a major nuisance simply due to time wasted
               on the assignments. ...And yes, I do believe that this course
               was beneath me and beneath virtually everyone else who gets
               forced to take it. -alexf
               \_ Given the communications ability of the typical geek on the
                  outside, it can't hurt.
                  \_ It doesn't help any, and hence hurts by wasting our
                     time.
                     \_ Of course it helps.  If nothing else it lets the
                    skip E190.  Is this not the case?
                        failures know why their career is going nowhere later
                        on.  Communication is more important than anything
                        else outside the towers.  If you can't communicate
                        clearly and intelligently then your skills are
                        worthless.
                     \_ OF COUR53 1T H3LP5!  1F NOTH1NG 3L53 1T L3T5 TH3
                        F41LUR35 KNOW WHY TH31R C4R33R 15 GO1NG NOWH3R3 L4T3R
                        ON!  COMMUN1C4T1ON 15 MOR3 1MPORT4NT TH4N 4NYTH1NG
                        3L53 OUT51D3 TH3 TOW3R5!  1F YOU C4N"T COMMUN1C4T3
                        CL34RLY 4ND 1NT3LL1G3NTLY TH3N YOUR 5K1LL5 4R3
                        WORTHL355, D00D!
               \_ as I recall, those who prove they can write beforehand can
                  skip E190.  Is this not the case?  I considered myself to
                  be one of "those who can write" before I took E190, but E190
                  improved my writing anyway.  I am now more conscious of
                  split-infinitives and dangling modifiers.  Furthermore,
                  there's the oral communication part of E190, which you seem
                  to have ignored.
                  \_ Use. Less. People either freeze up or already had a bit
                     of experience with public speaking. I personally am
                     a bit of a grammar nazi, and certainly didn't gain
                     anything from that section. If your English is so bad
                     to begin with, take an English class. Technical writing
                              \_ don't end a clause with a preposition.
                                \_ this is ok. just don't end sentences
                                   with prepositions.
                     should not be a grammar class. From what I've seen,
                     virtually everyone forgets it in a week anyways. -chialea
                           no clear antecedent _/            \_ not a word.
                     \_ my English was very good before I took E190, and I
                        learned more in E190 than I did in any of the English
                        classes I took.  English classes seem to focus more on
                        literature than on improving real grammar skills.