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| 5/24 |
| 2001/9/16 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:22489 Activity:high |
9/16 "The deputy secretary of state, Paul Wolfowitz, said that 'the whole
civilised world has been shocked... and even portions of the
uncivilised world have started to wonder whether they're on the
wrong side.'"
\_ url?
\_ http://www.guardian.co.uk/wtccrash/story/0,1300,552381,00.html
\_ While you're at the guardian, read this too:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/wtccrash/story/0,1300,552785,00.html
\_ Why do you keep posting garbage from the guardian. Let me give
the guardian exegesis: "America is a bad evil empire, Palestinians
the Guardian's exegesis: "America is a bad evil empire, Palestinians
and 'repressed' people are good. Now let me ramble
on about some socialist utopia because I like to hear
myself talk."
the Guardian's exegesis:
"America is a bad evil empire, Palestinians and 'repressed'
people are good. Now let me ramble on about some socialist
utopia because I like to hear myself talk."
[ reformatted - motd formatting daemon ]
Except these are the same fucks that thrive in a society
protected by the post WWII 'dirty' foreign policy of the US.
They offer no plausible alternative (because there
are very few), they just critisize.
are very few), they just criticize.
are very few), they just criticize. For what its worth,
even the Quaran acknowledges Jews have a right to live
in Canaan (Isreal).
They offer no plausible alternative (because there are very few),
they just criticize. For what its worth, even the Quaran
acknowledges Jews have a right to live in Canaan (Isreal).
\_ You're an idiot.
\_I reciprocate the sentiment petulant traitorous twit.
\_ Hi racist Jew! You've been causing quite the ruckus lately.
\_ So you deny the Quaran and Bible grant Canaan to Jews
and Arabia to the Muslims. BTW I love Buchanan.
and Arabia to the Muslims. BTW I'm a Buchanan fan.
\_ These postings are interesting because the offer a different
perspective than the mainstraim American press has offered so
far.
perspective than what the mainstraim American press has offered so
far. As for the British, I think they would differ with your
assesment that they are ungrateful for the efforts of the USj
assesment that they are ungrateful for the efforts of the US
during WWII. -payam
\_ I said Guardian not British subjects.
\_ I think the Guardian would beg to differ also. -payam
\_ No different than what you can find in the slightly-out-of-
mainstream American press like Salon, etc. What bothers me
about many of these types of articles is how the authors try
to throw in *every* *single* *thing* they don't like about the
US into the mix: Nicaragua/the Contras; US non-ratification
of the Kyoto treaty; walking out of the hijacked Durban
racism conference; "well, garwsh, that just proves all that
money we spent on missle defense sure was a waste, wasn't
it?" I knew that US activities abroad were often shameful,
bloody, and contradictory *before* the WTC bombing, thanks.
I don't need some snide European (or a snide wannabe-
European) writing condescending articles about what he
*thinks* I don't know right now. Still, if people want to
write articles on how US policy in the Middle East has
contributed to terrorism, that's their right. But when so-
called "journalists" use the deaths of 5,000 people to poke
sticks at America for every pet cause under the sun, that's
shameless, crass opportunism. I don't think that bin Laden
struck last week because he was upset about us not ratifying
the Kyoto treaty.
\_ Why don't you think about these pictures while you read these
these articles
http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a3ba3a5665fbd.htm
http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a3ba1fbd33a84.htm
\_ while the Kyoto protocol may not have anything to do with
the WTC bombing, it's perfectly relevant in that it shows
how US foreign polic
\_ While the Kyoto protocol may not have had anything to do
with the WTC bombing, it's perfectly relevant in that
it shows how the US believes it can "go it alone" on
anything. Of course, if there's something we want to
do, we twist everyone else's arm to join our side or
suffer crossing the world's last "superpower."
\_ I hope by "uncivilised world" Wolfowitz wasn't referring to the
whole Islamic or Arab world.
\_ I hope by "the uncivilised world" Wolfowitz wasn't referring to the
whole Islamic world or the whole Arab world. |
| 5/24 |
|
| www.guardian.co.uk/wtccrash/story/0,1300,552381,00.html Their leaders must understand it too 48 Special report: terrorism in the US Ahdaf Soueif Saturday September 15, 2001 49 The Guardian Thousands of people have been murdered in New York and Washington; The American government is readying itself - and the world - for action. This action would seem to derive from the concept of a "clash of civilisations", a school of thought that Islamist extremists subscribe to, since they, we understand, view America, or even the whole of western civilisation, as a hegemonous monolith; This is exactly the kind of thinking that thinking people must avoid. And yet it is reciprocated (if indeed it was not initiated) by the west. In the plast decade there has been a growing tendency to see the terms Arab, Muslim, fanatic, even terrorist as practically interchangeable. When EgyptAir flight 990 fell into the Atlantic in 1999 killing 217 people on board the US explained within minutes that the Egyptian pilot was an Islamist fanatic who had decided to commit suicide. Even after Egyptian newspapers published a photo of him with his little daughter holding an inflatable Father Christmas, the US insisted he was an Islamist fanatic. You could almost say that US officialdom, the media and Hollywood dreamed this nightmare into reality. But looking back, it is as though somebody had been working on a series of drafts. A "fanatic" in an Egyptian aircraft, a mystery boat crashing into the side of the USS Cole, and now this horror. Was somebody working out what could be done, what you could get away with? He cannot have expected that this massively criminal act would do him any good, and it has put back - who knows for how long - the causes that we are told he professes to care about. The too-easy thing about having a fanatic perpetrator is that you can ignore logical questions to do with purpose and motivation. What if the men who did it thought they were working for an Arab or Muslim cause - but were not? We saw images of Palestinians dancing in the streets after the news broke. It also needs to be said that the same three pictures were shown again and again, that correspondents on Arab news channels said they were isolated incidents and that the scale of the disaster had not yet become clear. Later, a correspondent in Jerusalem for the Today radio programme reported with surprise that people seemed able to make a distinction between the American people and their bereavement and the American state that had suffered a "deserved" blow. People in the Middle East have learned to make an automatic distinction between the state and the people. It is a faultline that could become more dangerous if regimes are pushed further from their people by the need to placate America in the near future. America needs to look at its foreign policy, its stance on the international court of justice and the Kyoto agreement, its contribution to the suffering of the Iraqi people, its bombing of Libya and Sudan, its long-standing position on the Arab-Israeli conflict, and ask itself why 16 men were prepared to kill and die to bring down the symbols of American commercial and military might. No price can be put on the pain that has hit so many people in one instant. A letter from a Canadian says: "Nothing justifies what was done on Tuesday. But we must ask ourselves how we have contributed to conditions that cause people to hate us this much. And listening to official responses I am filled with fear. Experts have opined that the US has to hit "someone" within 10 days, that cruise missiles targeted somewhere in the Middle East are the only appropriate action. How's that for the official American view of the planet? There is talk of a $20bn war chest, of the full resources of the American government, of combat patrols over Washington. The US will only be safe when the puppetmasters can no longer find people willing to lay down their lives to harm it. The nation that once said "give me your poor, your weak, your hungry" needs to look at itself through the eyes of the world's dispossessed. During the last year, and before the catastrophe, it was starting to do so. It seemed that the people of the most powerful country in the world were starting to let themselves see more clearly what was happening in the world around them. More articles were appearing, more people were asking questions. Sections of the US administration were even demurring slightly at the unconditional, eternal support they were supposed to extend to the state of Israel. Maybe it won't, if in their grief Americans make common cause with other sorrowing humans. |
| www.guardian.co.uk/wtccrash/story/0,1300,552785,00.html For the residents of this wounded city, the consternation, fear, and sustained sense of outrage and shock will certainly continue for a long time, as will the genuine sorrow and affliction that so much carnage has so cruelly imposed on so many. New Yorkers have been fortunate that Mayor Rudy Giuliani, a normally rebarbative and unpleasantly combative, even retrograde figure, has rapidly attained Churchillian status. Calmly, unsentimentally, and with extraordinary compassion, he has marshalled the city's heroic police, fire and emergency services to admirable effect and, alas, with huge loss of life. Giuliani's was the first voice of caution against panic and jingoistic attacks on the city's large Arab and Muslim communities, the first to express the commonsense of anguish, the first to press everyone to try to resume life after the shattering blows. The national television reporting has of course brought the horror of those dreadful winged juggernauts into every household, unremittingly, insistently, not always edifyingly. Most commentary has stressed, indeed magnified, the expected and the predictable in what most Americans feel: terrible loss, anger, outrage, a sense of violated vulnerability, a desire for vengeance and un-restrained retribution. Beyond formulaic expressions of grief and patriotism, every politician and accredited pundit or expert has dutifully repeated how we shall not be defeated, not be deterred, not stop until terrorism is exterminated. This is a war against terrorism, everyone says, but where, on what fronts, for what concrete ends? No answers are provided, except the vague suggestion that the Middle East and Islam are what 'we' are up against, and that terrorism must be destroyed. What is most depressing, however, is how little time is spent trying to understand America's role in the world, and its direct involvement in the complex reality beyond the two coasts that have for so long kept the rest of the world extremely distant and virtually out of the average American's mind. You'd think that 'America' was a sleeping giant rather than a superpower almost constantly at war, or in some sort of conflict, all over the Islamic domains. Osama bin Laden's name and face have become so numbingly familiar to Americans as in effect to obliterate any his tory he and his shadowy followers might have had before they became stock symbols of everything loathsome and hateful to the collective imagination. Inevitably, then, collective passions are being funnelled into a drive for war that uncannily resembles Captain Ahab in pursuit of Moby Dick, rather than what is going on, an imperial power injured at home for the first time, pursuing its interests systematically in what has become a suddenly reconfigured geography of conflict, without clear borders, or visible actors. Manichaean symbols and apocalyptic scenarios are bandied about with future consequences and rhetorical restraint thrown to the winds. Rational understanding of the situation is what is needed now, not more drum-beating. George Bush and his team clearly want the latter, not the former. Yet to most people in the Islamic and Arab worlds the official US is synonymous with arrogant power, known for its sanctimoniously munificent support not only of Israel but of numerous repressive Arab regimes, and its inattentiveness even to the possibility of dialogue with secular movements and people who have real grievances. Anti-Americanism in this context is not based on a hatred of modernity or technology-envy: it is based on a narrative of concrete interventions, specific depredations and, in the cases of the Iraqi people's suffering under US-imposed sanctions and US support for the 34-year-old Israeli occupation of Palestinian territories. Israel is now cynically exploiting the American catastrophe by intensifying its military occupation and oppression of the Palestinians. Political rhetoric in the US has overridden these things by flinging about words like 'terrorism' and 'freedom' whereas, of course, such large abstractions have mostly hidden sordid material interests, the influence of the oil, defence and Zionist lobbies now consolidating their hold on the entire Middle East, and an age-old religious hostility to (and ignorance of) 'Islam' that takes new forms every day. Intellectual responsibility, however, requires a still more critical sense of the actuality. There has been terror of course, and nearly every struggling modern movement at some stage has relied on terror. This was as true of Mandela's ANC as it was of all the others, Zionism included. And yet bombing defenceless civilians with F-16s and helicopter gunships has the same structure and effect as more conventional nationalist terror. What is bad about all terror is when it is attached to religious and political abstractions and reductive myths that keep veering away from history and sense. This is where the secular consciousness has to try to make itself felt, whether in the US or in the Middle East. No cause, no God, no abstract idea can justify the mass slaughter of innocents, most particularly when only a small group of people are in charge of such actions and feel themselves to represent the cause without having a real mandate to do so. Besides, much as it has been quarrelled over by Muslims, there isn't a single Islam: there are Islams, just as there are Americas. This diversity is true of all traditions, religions or nations even though some of their adherents have futiley tried to draw boundaries around themselves and pin their creeds down neatly. Yet history is far more complex and contradictory than to be represented by demagogues who are much less representative than either their followers or opponents claim. The trouble with religious or moral fundamentalists is that today their primitive ideas of revolution and resistance, including a willingness to kill and be killed, seem all too easily attached to technological sophistication and what appear to be gratifying acts of horrifying retaliation. The New York and Washington suicide bombers seem to have been middle-class, educated men, not poor refugees. Instead of getting a wise leadership that stresses education, mass mobilisation and patient organisation in the service of a cause, the poor and the desperate are often conned into the magical thinking and quick bloody solutions that such appalling models pro vide, wrapped in lying religious claptrap. On the other hand, immense military and economic power are no guarantee of wisdom or moral vision. Sceptical and humane voices have been largely unheard in the present crisis, as 'America' girds itself for a long war to be fought somewhere out there, along with allies who have been pressed into service on very uncertain grounds and for imprecise ends. We need to step back from the imaginary thresholds that separate people from each other and re-examine the labels, reconsider the limited resources available, decide to share our fates with each other as cultures mostly have done, despite the bellicose cries and creeds. Some will run behind them, but for future generations to condemn themselves to prolonged war and suffering without so much as a critical pause, without looking at interdependent histories of injustice and oppression, without trying for common emancipation and mutual enlightenment seems far more wilful than necessary. Demonisation of the Other is not a sufficient basis for any kind of decent politics, certainly not now when the roots of terror in injustice can be addressed, and the terrorists isolated, deterred or put out of business. It takes patience and education, but is more worth the investment than still greater levels of large-scale violence and suffering. |
| www.freerepublic.com/forum/a3ba3a5665fbd.htm -> www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/524264/posts OneVike This will be short so have patience with me, but I would like to get all the pictures that we have available of the attack on the WTC. I am preparing to make a shirt that will have a picture of the attack and a simple plea on the back that say's "Remember The Towers". If anyone has a good High resolution picture I could use I would appreciate it. It must be High enough resolution so that when I enlarge it for the transfer it will still look good. I will be gone for most of the day, My relatives are throwing me a birthday party. You can always count on FREEPERS to come through at in times of need. Again God Bless America an continue the good work Freepers. View Replies To: All While your hunting for pictures - can someone please help me also. Yesterday I asked on 2-3 threads if anyone has the George Washington picture that was put in the full page ad during the Mananagers Tribute. My aunt is here in Pittsburgh from Alaska and she never saw it. View Replies To: KayEyeDoubleDee I found it on the VFW page with the words already there --- not sure where it could be found, but I'm sure it's out there somewhere... View Replies To: OneVike I need a photo I saw on some thread on Freerepublic which shows a towelhead with a gun lazerdot on his forehead, and the captain said in part=HE IS WATCHING US. I want to print some out and put them in my car windows, and public bulletin boards. From the Associated Press: Grand total 266 dead on the aircraft. The plane was carrying 81 passengers, nine flight attendants and two pilots. This plane took off from Boston at 7:59 AM and crashed into the north tower of the World Trade Center at 8:45 AM. It was carrying 56 passengers, two pilots and seven flight attendants. This plane took off at 8:14 AM and crashed into the south tower of the World Trade Center at 9:03 AM. The plane was carrying 58 passengers, four flight attendants and two pilots. The plane was carrying 38 passengers, two pilots and five flight attendants. I expect that every American airport will now look and operate like an Israeli airport. Bear in mind that about 50,000 people work in the World Trade Center and this happened in the middle of an ordinary day of business. Fortunately there was about a one-hour delay between the impacts and the collapse of the towers. A lot of the people in the towers probably got out alive. A total of two United aircraft and two American Airlines aircraft have crashed, and all Freepers are encouraged to pray for the families of those killed and injured. Relief efforts, particularly donations of blood, deserve our immediate support. It is possible that the losses at Pearl Harbor will pale in comparison to this unbelievably dastardly attack. Total killed or missing in the World Trade Center are 4,763. In terms of property damage in constant dollars (that are adjusted for inflation), try to correlate the following losses. At Pearl Harbor, we lost two battleships, one very old battleship that had been converted into a target ship, one oiler and one repair ship. Three more battleships, a cruiser and two destroyers were damaged, but repaired and returned to action. We also lost over 100 aircraft, nearly all of them single-engined. On Tuesday we lost the World Trade Center's twin towers and six other buildings in lower Manhattan. The Pentagon and several other New York buildings have been damaged but are returning to full operational capacity -- in the case of the Pentagon, they were up and running very quickly but it may take a few months to repair the damage. We also lost four large-capacity intercontinental airliners. I strongly urge all freepers, and all media reporters lurking on these threads, to KEEP YOUR MOUTHS SHUT about any military or intelligence related activity by America and her allies. Don't assume that the information will never get back to the terrorists. Their sympathizers from around the world are definitely swarming all over this site and many other discussion sites. after they have delivered their ordnance payloads to their targets. NBC's Tim Russert reported from Washington that there is "unprecedented anger" in response to this attack, but they "don't know where or how to channel it." I anticipate that we will know very soon, and that our response will be devastating. View Replies Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works. |
| www.freerepublic.com/forum/a3ba1fbd33a84.htm -> www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/523047/posts NCSteve The Palestinian Authority has warned journalists they might be in danger if they continue to use images of Arabs celebrating Tuesdays terrorist attacks. PA officials allegedly have threatened journalists who continue to show Palestinians rejoicing and dancing at the news of the devastation caused by hijacked jets in New York City, Washington and Pennsylvania. View Replies To: NCSteve But one foreign correspondent told the Post that AP producers had been threatened by PA Cabinet Secretary Abdel Ahmed Rahman, who told them their safety couldn't be guaranteed if they insisted on broadcasting the images. Note to self: Add PA to list of known terrorist that our government must - Quash! View Replies To: NCSteve A Palestinian fires his rifle in celebration as children dance around him at Ain al-Hilweh refugee camp near the port city Sidon in south Lebanon September 11, 2001. Arab leaders voiced shock and horror at devastating attacks that leveled symbols of American power Tuesday, but a chorus of cheers rose from streets that resent US backing of Israel. View Replies To: ResistorSister This is an interesting photo. Someone posted it last night, and according to their information it actually dates back to the Persian Gulf War in 1991. Apparently CNN has been showing some old footage like this and claiming that it was taken yesterday. View Replies To: Alberta's Child In 1991, Pallies would not dare display their automatic weapons in the open (if they had them) because all of West Bank was under Israeli military control. Other footage of the Pallie festivities also had them fire various weapons into the air. View Replies To: NCSteve Not any great suprise that AraFart & his crew are and always have been Terrorists. He lost all credibility & support whenever this happened. These jerks have been blowing up kids on buses and teenagers in Pizza Parlors for years, this isn't anything new. They definately need to be added to the list of Terrorists that need their asses kicked. All we have to do is give the Israeli's free reign & they will wipe out that problem in a couple days. View Replies To: ResistorSister The photo was not necessarily taken on 9/11. Do a search on things like "Palestinian photos" and see if you can find a thread from about midnight last night PST. What prompted the discussion was the fact that the kid is wearing a Chicago Bears jersey, and nobody currently wears #33 for Chicago. This guy (or someone else) did some further research on these Palestinian photos and noted that there wasn't a single car in any of them that was newer than a late 1980s model. View Replies To: l33t When you think about it, I can't imagine anyone being dumb enough to give a kid an AK-47 and dance around on a crowded street with him on someone's shoulders. View Replies To: Alberta's Child Don't shoot the messenger! One time, I saw a kid wearing a T-shirt from some Hawaiian resort. So I asked him, "Hey, did you get to go to Hawaii this summer?" it could be a sign that his mother shopped at a Relief Center where there are clothes that were donated by Americans. View Replies To: Alberta's Child Yahoo's description of the picture gives pretty clear attribution for this photo (2nd one on the first link): A Palestinian fires his rifle in celebration as children dance around him at Ain al-Hilweh refugee camp near the port city Sidon in south Lebanon September 11, 2001. Arab leaders voiced shock and horror at devastating attacks that leveled symbols of American power Tuesday, but a chorus of cheers rose from streets that resent US backing of Israel. View Replies Comment #22 Removed by Moderator To: Alberta's Child This guy (or someone else) did some further research on these Palestinian photos and noted that there wasn't a single car in any of them that was newer than a late 1980s model. The same could be said for a photo taken in downtown Tijuana this afternoon. Ancient, wheezing American automobile castoffs are a staple in third world countries. View Replies To: Alberta's Child Do a search on things like "Palestinian photos" and see if you can find a thread from about midnight last night PST. What prompted the discussion was the fact that the kid is wearing a Chicago Bears jersey, and nobody currently wears #33 for Chicago. This guy (or someone else) did some further research on these Palestinian photos and noted that there wasn't a single car in any of them that was newer than a late 1980s model. They have USED American clothes, recieved as donations, they do not go to the Nablus NFL, or NBA store to get current gear! Palestinians dance in the street at the Ein el-Hilweh refugee camp near the southern port city of Sidon, Tuesday Sept. Palestinians in Lebanon's refugee camps celebrated the attacks in the United States by firing into the air. A group of children near east Jerusalem's Old City hold Palestinian flags as they chant slogans in reaction to the news of a terrorist attack on the World Trade Center in New York and the Pentagon in Washington Tuesday, Sept. A Palestinian boy fires in the air at the Ein el-Hilweh refugee camp near the southern port city of Sidon, Tuesday Sept. Palestinians in Lebanon's refugee camps celebrated the attacks in the United States by firing in the air using all kinds of weapons. Palestinians flash the V-sign and wave Palestinian and the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine (PFLP) flags during a demonstration at the Ein el-Hilweh refugee camp near the southern port city of Sidon, Lebanon, Tuesday Sept. Palestinians in Lebanon's refugee camps celebrated the attacks in the United States by firing in the air using all kinds of weapons. Two Palestinians fire in the air at the Ein el-Hilweh refugee camp near the southern port city of Sidon, Tuesday, Sept. Palestinians in Lebanon's refugee camps celebrated the attacks in the United States by firing in the air using all kinds of weapons. A group of children near east Jerusalem's Old City hold Palestinian flags as they flash the V-sign reacting to the news of a terrorist attack on the World Trade Center in New York Tuesday Sept. A Palestinian fires his rifle in celebration at Ain al-Hilweh refugee camp near the port city Sidon in south Lebanon, September 11, 2001. Arab leaders voiced shock and horror at devastating attacks that leveled symbols of American power Tuesday, but a chorus of cheers rose from streets that resent US backing of Israel. A Palestinian fires his rifle in celebration as children dance around him at Ain al-Hilweh refugee camp near the port city Sidon in south Lebanon September 11, 2001. Arab leaders voiced shock and horror at devastating attacks that leveled symbols of American power Tuesday, but a chorus of cheers rose from streets that resent US backing of Israel. A Palestinian woman receives free sweets from a vendor as groups of locals in east Jerusalem's Old City celebrate after hearing the news of a terrorist attack on the World Trade Center in New York, Tuesday, Sept. A Palestinian guerrilla fires his rifle as children dance around him at Ain al-Hilweh refugee camp near the port city Sidon in south Lebanon September 11, 2001. Palestinians in Lebanon greeted the news of the devastating attack on American targets on Tuesday with jubilant gunfire, dancing and cheering, saying Israel's chief backer deserved such a punishment. A Palestinian fires his rifle at Ain al-Hilweh refugee camp near the port city Sidon in south Lebanon, September 11, 2001. Palestinians at refugee camps in Lebanon fired into the air on Tuesday to celebrate news of attacks on major US landmarks and government offices. A Palestinian guerrilla fires from his rifle, as children dance around him at Ain al-Hilweh refugee camp near the port city Sidon in south Lebanon September 11, 2001. Palestinians in Lebanon met news of attacks on American targets on Tuesday with jubilant gunfire, dancing and cheering, saying Israel's chief backer deserved such a punishment. A Palestinian guerrilla fires from his rifle, as children dance around him at Ain al-Hilweh refugee camp near the port city Sidon in sourth Lebanon September 11, 2001. Palestinians in Lebanon met news of attacks on American t... |