Berkeley CSUA MOTD:Entry 22411
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2025/05/25 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
5/25    

2001/9/12 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:22411 Activity:insanely high
9/12    So why do the western powers antagonize the Arabs the way they do?
        a) why does Israel insist on creating "settlements" in Arab areas?
           \_ Because God told them to.
        b) why does Israel insist that Jerusalem must belong only to them?
           \_ As opposed to say the PLO who will not let jews or christians
              or any non-muslim into Jerusalem? Yeah let's just hand it over
              to a bunch of inhuman thugs.
              \_ This comment is idiotic. Non-Muslims go to Jerusalem all
                 the time.
                 \_ Because it is (or was) in Jewish hands. If turned over
                    to the PLO, all access to Jerusalem will be restricted
                    to muslims.
        c) why has Israel used live fire on rock-throwing Palestinian youths,
           treated them like second hand citizens, subjected children to random
           violent interrogations and searches and seizures?
           \_ why does the media only show the rock throwing, and not
              the molotovs and shots against the Israeli troups?
           \_ Because the PLO employs children and youths as delivery
              mechanisms for its bombs etc.
              Oh yeah, let's not forget that the PLO also uses live fire,
              its just that you don't see it on CNN.
              \_ you do see it on CNN. but obviously these children are only
                 going to hate the more when all of them are treated with the
                 assumption of guilt. anyway Palestine is just one issue and
                 I think not the most important one to the rest of the Arabs;
                 palestinian terrorists seem mostly to target israel.
           \_ Perhaps you should read this:
            http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/comment-horowitz091001.shtml
              The PLO isn't kids who are feeling bad.
        c) why has/does the United States prop up corrupt regimes in
           South America, Saudi Arabia, Iraq, etc. etc... just to secure oil
           and stop the "communist plot to take over the world"? CIA-assisted
           coups all over the place supporting the same dictators we publicly
           denounce.
        Terrorists aren't crazy. They're incredibly desperate. If you think
        about it, terrorism is the only deterrance to the western powers in
        their conduct. If you were living under extreme oppression and the US
        was the ultimate power behind your oppressors you'd cheer too when a
        blow was made that actually meant something to them. There are so many
        more issues here than people understand it's sickening. Of course the
        tragedy is sickening too. But it's not like these muslims just randomly
        hate the us for no reason, and blow themselves up for jollies.
        \_ What oppression? Most of those Arab countries are prospering
           with oil exports. I would make the exception with Iraq, who
           invaded another country, Iran, who kidnapped US embassy workers
           and has since sponsored terrorism, and the Palestinians who
           may have some cause for rebellion but not to the point of
           crashing planes into buildings.
        \_ I'd want to the police to shoot live rounds at rock throwers, too.
           There's this silly misconception among people that they don't
           deserve to be shot at if they throw fist-sized rocks at soldiers.
           \_ at children? maybe that's because you're a sick fuck.
              \_ a "child" with a handgrenade is still an enemy that needs
                 to be taken out.
                 \_ Too bad most motd bleeding hearts don't understand this.
              \_ nah, it's usually kids intermingled with young adults
                 oh yeah, and calm down silly
                 \_ tell that to those advocating turning the middle east into
                    pavement and pointing to islam as the driving force here.
                    tell that to all the western leaders who spout predictable
                    crap about "terrorism will not stand" without any blip about
                    why we suffer terrorism. even the media has every fact you
                    might want to know...except in the faq there's no entry for
                    "why".
                    \_ nah, you can tell them that.  I'm just making a single
                       point about rock throwing
        \_ The PLO can lock up individuals in Palesitian radical factions
           they suspect of planning suicide bombings.
        \_ The PLO can arrest Palesitian radical factions they suspect
           as participating in suicide bombings.
           The Israelis could stop building settlements.
           Now, tell me why neither has occurred?
           Now, tell me why niether has occurred?
           \_ Participating in suicide bombings? Aren't they already dead?
           \_ Because the palestinians want more land, and Israel wants
              all of their land back. You know, the land they had for
              a long time, promised to them by God?
              \_ You fucking idiot.
              \_ Man, your ignorance is truly frightening.
                 \_ Your unfounded namecalling is truely frightening.
                    Are you incapable of logical refutation, then?
                    Display your "enlightenment" in the face of "ignorance"
                    \_ Why?  Unfounded namecalling takes much less effort.
2025/05/25 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
5/25    

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Cache (6126 bytes)
www.nationalreview.com/comment/comment-horowitz091001.shtml
Hardball, Mideast-Style Liquidation as a political tool. By Ami Horowitz, a freelance writer in New York. September 10, 2001 3:20 p.m. This past week five bombs exploded across population centers in Jerusalem. Israel responded by rocketing a convoy of known terrorists, killing two of the three intended targets. Israel has been attacked from nearly every quarter regarding this response to the savage terrorism which the Palestinians are perpetrating upon the Israeli populace. Even the United States, by every account Israel's best friend, has joined in the chorus, albeit not directly, by blindly repeating the same mantra of moral equivalence, "violence by both sides," and "cycle of violence." Such morally damaging phrases fail at capturing the truth of what is happening in Israel, which is that the Israeli response of targeting terrorists and destroying Palestinian military infrastructure (when they are empty) is laughable comparable to the Palestinian butchery on Israeli civilians using suicide bombers. The Israeli practice of liquidation, preemptive targeting, or assassination, call it what you will, is an effective tool against the Palestinian attacks. In fact it is an extremely moral response to a strategy that is anything but. Israel's goal is to eliminate the middle tier of Palestinian leaders, who are recruiting, training, and directing the cadre of suicide bombers that are essentially holding Israeli society hostage. It is important to unmask exactly who is being targeted by Israel and not to be led by the Palestinian propaganda machine, which exclaims that Israel is targeting political leaders. Politics and terrorism are inexorably intertwined in Palestinian society. Mahmoud Karmi, one of the targets, is personally responsible for the killing of six Israelis, of which two were peacenik restaurateurs from Tel Aviv who were kidnapped, tortured, and killed. The last Israeli targeted killing was PFLP commander in the West Bank and Gaza, Ali Zabri. Aside from being one of the most effective terrorist organizations in the 70's and 80's, when it was responsible for the killing of more than a dozen Americans, Zabri has been personally responsible for over half a dozen bombs in Israel this year alone. Israel has made the strategic choice to selectively target these criminals in polished surgical operations, which by and large kill only the intended targets, often time putting Israeli soldiers at risk in order to do so. This avoids the painful process of Israel gearing up its significantly larger and more powerful army and engaging in real combat, which would prove disastrous for the Palestinians. Israel rarely chooses the military option first. As in this case, Israel has implored Arafat for years to arrest the known terrorists and their handlers, but Arafat has steadfastly refused to make any meaningful effort. Let there be no mistake about it, Arafat has not only refused to take action against the terrorists — he gives them tacit approval. Arafat owns the military infrastructure of the Palestinian people, and he knows exactly who and where the terrorists are. If he possessed the will, he could wipe out the terror cells, particularly because he has no judicial restraints. Arafat chooses not to because the terrorists play a very useful purpose for him. In fact after he makes weak condemnations in English soon after a particularly horrendous attack (almost always done so with pressure from Colin Powell), he follows that with praise for the murderers in Arabic, a very important distinction. The terrorists allow Arafat to inflict an enormous amount of pain on Israel, while giving him the illusion of deniability. The reality is that his address is where the final accountability lies. He bore that responsibility when he shrewdly negotiated quasi-sovereignty over much of the West Bank. He has now forced Israel's hand when it comes to how they can deal with the terrorist threat. When the State Department attacks Israel's action as being provocative one can not help but wonder at the hypocrisy. The United States has engaged in far more confrontational operations, such as lobbing dozens of cruise missiles into Afghanistan, killing Osama bin Laden's terrorists in training. One of the more morally dubious examples was when U.S helicopters attempted to assassinate Muhammad Adid, and in the process inadvertently killed hundreds of Somali citizens. Even more laughable is the Palestinian claim that the explicit targeting of these terrorists is "extra judicial." This coming from an entity that cultivates the "judicially appropriate" terrorist organizations. Further, the Palestinians have engaged in a systematic "cleansing" of its own population, by arresting and executing hundreds of "collaborators." These collaborators are rounded up by the Palestinian police force and put on show trials, which can last as little as half an hour, with no real defense council. They are then put in jail or summarily publicly executed; it makes the Soviet judicial system look like the Peoples' Court. That is if they are lucky enough to avoid Arafat's roving gangs that simply shoot dead suspected collaborators where they stand. It is important to understand the conflict between the Palestinians and Israelis as a state of war. From Israel's side it is a defensive war, all violence would end the day the Palestinians put down their arms and return to the negotiating table. The Palestinians are not in the least bit interested in this option and they are using whatever weapon they have at their disposal in this fight. The most effective weapon that they possess is the suicide bomber attacking its civilian targets. If they had a military that could rival Israel's they would use such power without an afterthought. Israel is on the other hand morally self-constrained; it chooses not to fight fire with fire. It has therefore devised a very practical and highly ethical way to battle such insidious combat. They simply target the masterminds behind the bombers. Instead of being vilified by the international community Israel should be lauded for its restraint.