4/30    Remember kiddies, do your part to arm china. buy more chinese goods
        - help the PLA/PLAN/PLAAF.
        \_ this is dumb. of course i'll buy chinese goods. if it's the same
           quality for less, i'd be stupid not to. the real problem is our
           trade policies that put no compensatory tariffs on imports from
           nations that do not adhere to environmental and labor standards
           that domestic companies must, and nations like Japan that have
           high trade barriers to which we do not respond in kind, and groups
           like whatever lobby is responsible for our continued monetary aid
           to places like israel that i doubt any american really wants their
           tax dollars being funneled to.
           \_ Monetary aid to Israel that is pre-earmarked to buying American
              weapons.  It's really just a grant to the American weapons
              industry.  Those dirty Jews don't get the cash to spend on
              just any old thing.
              \_ what does that have to do with anything? it's still giving
                 them my money. does this somehow make it okay, or good for
                 taxpayers? if it's so good we should have the government
                 buy tons of computers and cars and other shit and give that
                 away too.
                 \_ Medicare and Welfare and the EPA are giving my money
                    away to worthless causes. At least if my money is used
                    to purchase weapons that are used by the people of
                    Israel defend thier homes and thier freedoms, my money
                    is put to better use than wasting it on some lowlifes
                    who can't get off thier asses to find work or for some
                    tree huggers who just want to stand in the way of modern
                    civilization and progress.
                    \_ what does this have to do with anything? all this
                       is irrelevant to the fact that tax dollars are going
                       to israel, and i've never seen anyone that wants this,
                       except the israelis.
                       \_ *I* want this.  Now you can't honestly say you don't
                          know of American citizens who want their tax money
                          to go to support Israel.  You'd rather it go to what?
                          If they're going to tax the shit out of me, better it
                          goes to Israeli weapons than some welfare whores.
                          \_ are you jewish? if so, i rest my case. otherwise,
                             why do you consider this an either/or case? both
                             are happening. why do you keep bringing up welfare?
                             \_ You rest your case?  Based on what?  I'm an
                                American and I pay a shitload of taxes to the
                                state and federal government all year long. I'm
                                also a registered voter and I actually vote.
                                Can you provide a URL for where it says tax
                                paying, voting American born citizens have no
                                say in how their money gets spent?  And welfare
                                has a lot to do with it.  I'll say it again for
                                you.  This is _my_ money they're taking in
                                taxes.  If I must pay taxes I want the money to
                                go to things I support, like Israel and not
                                things I don't such as welfare whores.  What is

                                so hard to understand about that?
                                \_ right. do you understand that disabled people
                                wasn't going to the defense of Isreal, it would
                                   are on medicare/welfare? not everyone is
                                   able to support themselves. i suppose you
                                   would just have them killed? or leave them
                                   to their poverty. furthermore, welfare
                                   choices are issues that come up in elections;
                                   sending money to israel doesn't. it is not
                                   the duty of the united states to send money
                                   to foreign nations to support "causes."
                                   the world runs on self-interest. the money
                                   is sent because of self-interest groups
                                   with undue influence.
                                   \_ The number of people on welfare who
                                      can't take care of themselves is miniscule.
                                      Most of the people on the dole are
                                      just to lazy to get a job.
           \_ Wen Ho Lee is hardly innocent. He has pled guilt to most
                                      In the case of Israel, if we don't
                                      support them, they will not survive.
                                      And the "holy land" will not be free.
                                      I'm not jewish, christian or muslim,
                                      but the though of Jerusalem in Muslim
                                      hands is frightening.
                                      \_ god you are an idiot. on what do you
                                         base this "miniscule" claim?? anyway
                                         the job of the *US* government is to
                                         do things that help the *US* people,
                                         not the israeli people, you fuckwit.
                                         besides which, israel is and has been
                                         for decades overwhelmingly capable of
                                         defending itself. if you want to
                                         support them further you can send
                                         your own money there, but you can't
                                         pretend that most americans would do
                                         so. there are many causes right here
                                         in the usa that money could be spent
                                         on.
                                         \_ welfare is not help, esp. when
                                            most of the people who are on
                                            welfare are using my money to
                                            buy drugs and avoid work. Ideally
                                            the government wouldn't waste
                           commies traitors out to ruin this country.  They
                                            any money and I wouldn't be
                                            overtaxed, but in reality that
                                            won't happen because of the
                                            greedy liberals in Washington
                                            who think that its their $s
                                            instead of mine. Since money
                                            will be wasted anyway, better
                                            that it gets put to good use
                                            defending Israel rather than
                                            to bad use by some crack whore
                                            in the bronx.
                                 in case you forgot the point   _/
                                 of this, it isn't whether israel
                                 is a "good cause", it's whether US
                                 representatives should be doing things
                          \_ Did you read the link to the Dir. Freeh's
                             statement? He states that the charges were
                             dropped because proving would compromise
                             national security.
                                 that *most* americans do not want,
                                 for their own personal gain. and you
                                 can't elect/not elect based on these
                                 issues because they are buried under
                                 more important ones. this is called
                                 corruption. your "it's good because
                                 at least it's not welfare" is totally
                                 ridiculous. the same goes for our
                                 trade policies.
                                   \_ Prove to me that *most* americans
                                      don't want to support Israel or
                                      that such support is given by
                                      elected representatives for personal
                                      gain.
                                      \_ it's not a matter of "support" it's
                                         a matter of doling out money. we
                                         "support" taiwan but we don't actually
                                         buy their arms with tax dollars. us
                                         policies in the middle east have a lot
                                         to do with arabs hating the usa, they
                                         didn't just wake up one morning and
                                         decide "usa sux". but that's ok,
                                         cuz they're muslims, and it's ok to
                                         be anti-muslim.
                                 \_ Why do you keep saying "most" Americans
                                    agree with you?  URL, please?  Here, how
                                    about I say something equally unfounded:
                                    "Most Americans want tax money spent on
                                    Israel".  There.  Now we've both said
                                    something unfounded, unproven and unknown.
                                    We're now equally stupid and ridiculous.
                                    And I think *you* forgot the point of this.
                                    This thread was started as a "boycott
                                    Chinese goods" thread, not the antisemitic
                                    thread you turned it into.
                                    \_ oh that's classic. i was just waiting
                                       for the "antisemitic" thing to come up.
                                       the typical shield. you don't want to
                                       give your money to israel?? you racist
                                       bastard! you don't want to be RACIST,
                                       do you? that's right, cough it up.
                                       fucking dumbshit. and i brought up
                                       israel as an example of a special
                                       interest cause, because our stupid
                                       trade policies wrt china are also
                                       governed by special interest groups.
                                       \_ Lets all just agree to disagree.
                                       \_ You still fail to provide any proof
                                          of your assertion that "most Americans"
                                          oppose helping Israel and hide behind
                                          one minor comment.  Israel isn't a
                                          random special interest cause.  It is
                                          the only democracy and friendly
                                          nation in a very unfriendly area of
                                          the world to the US.  It behooves
                                          this country to help that country.
                                          Where's that link about "most
                                          Americans"?  Ho hum... oh?  There
                                          isn't one?  You were just debating
                                          out your ass?  What a surprise!  I
                                          called you anti-semitic because you
                                          instantly dismissed any defense of
                                          Israel thinking I might be Jewish.
                                          You're an anti-semite.  That's ok.
                                          You're not a alone.  A lot of people
                                          are.  Now where's that link about
                                          "most Americans" agreeing with you
                                          on the subject of helping Israel?
                                          \_ i'm not going to argue about
                                             the real point when you bring
                                             the anti-semite bullshit into
                                             this. what possible basis do
                                             you have for calling me this?
                                             all i did was dismiss support
                                             for this policy by jews, since
                                             by definition their religion
                                             obligates them to consider
                                             israel the holy land etc. which
                                             is just reality. the religion
                                             says they're the chosen people.
                                             obviously they're going to be
                                             biased. if you can't understand
                                             this you're a waste of time.
                                             \_ You're guilty as charged and
                                                still unable to provide a link
                                                saying *any* Americans agree
                                                with your views, much less
                                                "most" Americans.  You put up
                                                a good fight for someone with
                                                such obvious biases and near
                                                zero debate skills, but it's
                                                over.  You got no links, you
                                                got no argument, you got nada.
                                                Insert coin to continue? Y/n
                                if debate skills consist of twisting _/
                          \_ Maybe so for long dead people, but
                             poor villagers in India almost always
                             have better teeth than city slickers.
                             Their teeth may be colored, but its
                             never rotten, and that largely due to
                             thier diet.
                                a discussion into "you're racist" and
                                "i'm right and you're wrong" then yes
                                you have commendable debate skills.
                                \_ You both are complete morons. Stop
                                   extending this damn motd to a 50 page
                                   book.
                             \_ I'm not jewish. It is either/or. If my money
                                wasn't going to the defense of Israel, it would
                                be getting wasted on dipshit treehuggers, and
                                welfare crack whores. If my $s have to get
                                spent, better it is on the defense of the
                                Jewish homeland.
                       \_ Tax $s get misspent all the time. At least with
                          Israel its going to a good cause.
                          \_ what is good about that cause?
                             \_ The struggle for the freedom and the right
                                of the Jewish people to live. The defense
                                of the rights and freedoms of people is
                                by definition a good cause.
        \_ Uhm, whatever.  Avoiding Chinese goods won't make a big difference.
           Kicking all their students and spies out might.
           \_ Yeah. We, like, need to build Chinese internet camps like we
              did for Japanese Americans in WWII because you know how all of
              them were spies.
                \_ Yeah, like we need more straw men like this.  Nice try.
                \_ Chinese internet camps would be cool.  t3 lines to every
                   computer and only chinese are alowed to use it.
                   \_ the US would be taken over rapidly.. he means internment?
                        \_ I think he does but he's too busy trolling to check
                           his spelling and word choices.
        \_ 1824, Ralph Waldo Emerson
                   "The closer contemplation we condescend to
                   bestow, the more disgustful is that booby nation I
                   have no gift to see a meaning in the venerable
                   vegetation of this extraordinary people. They are
                   tools for other nations to use. Even miserable
                   Africa can say I have hewn the wood and drawn
                   the water to promote the civilization of other lands.
                   But China, reverend dullness, hoary idiot! All she
                   can say at the convocation of nations must be --- I
                   made the tea."
           1881, Republican Senator,John Miller of California:
                   "The Chinese are inhabitants of another planet.
                   Machine like. They are automatic engines of flesh
                   and blood. Why not discriminate? Why aid in the
                   increase and distribution over our domain of a
                   degraded and inferior race, and the progenitors of
                   an inferior sort of men. We ask you to secure us
                   American anglo-saxon civilization without
                   contamination or adulteration. Let us keep pure the
                   blood which circulates through our political
                   system. And preserve our life from the gangrene of
                   oriental civilization."
           1999, Representitive of California, Christopher Cox:
                   "essentially ALL Chinese visitors to the U.S. are
                    potential spies. Futhermore, all Chinese Americans
                    are potential "sleeper agents," who can be used at
                    any time but may not be activated for a decade or
                    more."

           When we fought a civil war to abolished Slavery, we put
           Chinese labors in pig pens and import to Cuba (the term we
           used them was "coolies").

           When we talk about innocent until proven guilty, Wen Ho Lee
           was in solitary confinement 23 hours a day, shackled from
           waist down for MONTHS without possiblity of bail.  Though
           we can't prove it, but his name is indeed too Chinese
           sounding to be innocent.
           \_ Wen Ho Lee is hardly innocent. He has pled guilty to most
              of the charges filed against him and there was no question
              as to his guilt in those charges. Only one or two of the
              most serious charges have been dropped. There is still
              no doubt in the minds of most *rational* americans that
              Dr. Lee's action were not in the best interest of this
              nation, its secuity and its people.
              \_ what the fuck are you smoking?  MOST of all his charges were
                 dropped except for a few (like a couple i believe).  Why
                 don't you track down the Time articles are these before you
                 spill.
                 \_ Cough... Time articles?  I bet you love those
                    little colored pie charts in USA Today, right?
                    Lee was guilty.
                    \_ At long last, sir, have you no shame? Have you no
                       sense of decency, sir?
                        \_ Still doesn't mean they weren't a bunch of fucking
                           commie traitors out to ruin this country.  They
                           still are.
                 \_ Okay, 58 of the 59 counts were dropped, but not
                    because Dr. Lee was innocent, its because proving
                    in court that he was guilty would have ment that the
                    FBI (under the  espionage act) would have had to
                    reveal too much information about national security
                    procedures and the information that was stolen.
                    Here's a URL even:
                    http://www.salon.com/news/col/horo/2000/10/03/lee
                    \_ That's the same David Horowitz that tjb quotes.
                       What are you, 64, white, and living in Alabama?
                       Be ashamed of yourself and stop polluting the motd
                       with random URLs pretending to know something.
                   \_ quoting horowitz is not going to win you
                      points around here
                    \_ God damn it!  Stop bringing facts into this!  I really
                       hate when you shut down someone's little rant on their
                       personal agenda with facts.
                       \_ Facts? What facts? The http://salon.com article just
                          mentioned a bunch of hearsays and conjectures
                          of what might have happened.
                          \_ Try again.  I know it's hard.
                             \_ Whatever. You just need a good beating.
                                Because someone said something doesn't
                                make it a fact. The URL points out a lot
                                of facts but none of the facts prove
                                Dr. Lee was a spy.  "Fact: The sky is
                                blue today. Conclusion: Jon Doe was the
                                killer." is a pathetic argument. The
                                same goes for "Fact: Freeh said that
                                that proving Dr. Lee guilty would have
                                resulted in a breach in national security.
                                conclusion: Dr. Lee is a Chinese spy." is
                                also an equally pathetic argument.
                                \_ If proving Dr. Lee guilty (which he
                                   obviously ws) would further compromise
                                   national security, the FBI has to
                                   cut its losses. What part of that
                                   do you not understand?
                                   \_ [ followup about just needing to
                                        prove mishandling of secrets
                                        deleted (censored?) ]
                                      \_ Actually, you have to produce
                                         the files that were mishandled
                                         or at least details about thier
                                         contents under the espionage act.
                                         This is a big problem in certain
                                         cases, esp. in nuclear weapons
                                         technology (which Lee was involved
                                         in *mishandling*).
                    \_ What's special with that?  OJ was innocent too.  Don't
                       blame the races.  Blame the American justice system
                       instead.
                       \_ Wow... this is such a well done troll.  Blunt yet
                          has a subtle hint of "I *must* respond to this
                          fool!".  Bravo!  Well done.
                       \_ I'm not blaming chinese people. I'm just
                          saying that Dr. Lee was guilty.
                       \_ Lee was not *targeted* because he was chinese
                          he was arrested because he *BROKE THE LAW*. Maybe
                          your little criminal mind can't understand
                          that or maybe you don't care about national
                          security or maybe you don't love this nation
                          and its freedoms, but some of us do. And people
                          who compromise the security of this nation
                          have no right to live.
                          \_ Dr. Lee *WAS CHINESE*? I could have sworn
                             he came from a little island that is considered
                             a U.S. ally and very anti-China. In this
                             country, we don't need facts to prove that
                             someone *BROKE THE LAW*. Conjectures and
                             hearsays are good enough.
                             \_ He's still guilty of 1 charge which
                                carries a 25 yr sentence. I'm guessing
                                that means he *BROKE THE LAW*.
                          \_ I agree, and that's why I said blame the justice
                             system for not being able to nail down these
                             bastards.
                             \_ The bane of the innocent until proven
                                guilty system is that guilty men walk
                                free. It is the price of assuring that
                                innocent men are not incorrectly locked
                                up. All in all its a better system than
                                say GB's where it guilty until proven
                                innocent and the burden of proof is on
                                the defendent not the prosecution.
                                \_ Great Britain?  No, there it's also
                                   innocent until proven guilty and guilty
                                   men often walk free.  Same problem.
                                   \_ I just checked my facts, you are
                                      right its innocent until proven
                                      guilty, apparently this was changed
                                      in the late 70s because of several
                                      judicial mistakes:
                             http://www.uni-wuerzburg.de/law/uk00000_.html
                                      \_ But you still don't have nearly as
                                         many rights in GB as you do here if
                                         you're a defendant.
                                         \_ Agreed, GB defense law sucks.

           Selective enforcement of the law based upon race, ethnicity
           and national orgin is the fundamental building block of
           our great nation.  Without it, there will be no land which
           we can establsih our nation; without it, there will be no
           slaves which fuel our economy.
           \_ I'm a victim, I'm oppressed. Cry me a storm wussy boy.
              You can't be oppressed or victimized unless you let it
              happen.

           Anti-Chinese is as American as apple pie. So, live with it!
           \_ Hi Paolo!
           \_ Was this supposed to be shocking or something?  And oh yes, I
              would like some more tea.  Go be a good boy and refill my cup.
              \_ Soli sah thea i no mo tea, injuans dump i in bosto harbo.
                 Perhap you like drink coffee?
                 \_ Get the whips.
           \_ I'm pro-Chinese, as long as they're cute girls! --aaron
              \_ Chinese chix are ugly and have bad teeth.
                 \_ Making fun of poverty, how crass.
                    \_ poor != bad teeth
                       \_ poor => bad teeth.  Condition of teeth is one of
                          the ways Archaelogists used to determine the class/
                          social status/material well being from the remains
                          of a person.
                          \_ White racist oppressor arhcaeologists.  The
                             ultimate in racism: racism covered by the veneer
                             of science.  Oppressing people who aren't even
                             here to defend themselves.  How cowardly.
                          \_ This is not strictly true. In India for
                             example, poor villagers often have much
                             better (ie not rotten) teeth than city
                             slickers. Its mostly due to a better
                             diet.
                             \_ Same in China.
                 \_ so do some Japanese chix. Dentistry in the far east sucks.
                    lots less drugs
                    \_ Japanese chix raised in the US are still much
                       more attractive than chinese chix raised in the
                       US.
                 Japanese chix is where its at.

        \_ List of some spies.  Don't make me dig out my list of 250
           since WWII:
                Harold Nicholson
                Aldrich Ames
                David Sheldon Boone
                Mariano Faget
                George Trofimoff
                Alejandro Alonso
                Earl Pitts
                Richard W. Miller
                Robert Philip Hanssen
                John A. Walker Jr.
                George Bush
                Felix S. Bloch
                Ronald Pelton
                George Blake
                Edward Lee Howard
        \_ xenophobia is bane of society
           \_ buying goods from the enemy is the bane of society
           \_ xenophobia keeps a society from being some random mishmash of
              crap like this country is becoming.
              \_ and i supposed your ancestors were native americans who
                 didn't emigrate here like everyone else? that's about
                 as logical as saying america's strength is derived from
                 being one homogenous population.