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| 11/23 |
| 2001/4/26-27 [Health/Men, Health/Women] UID:21110 Activity:insanely high |
4/26 house passes bill defining fetuses as people. what's next,
sperm is "potential people" and jacking off is a federal crime?
\_ too much gov intervention on people life is a dangerous thing.
besides we should be concerned with over population.
\_ http://www.tennessean.com/sii/99/09/07/fetus07.shtml
21 week old fetus reaches out and grabs doctor's hand.
\_ what is a "medical ethicist"? hi there, i'm a medical ethicist.
as opposed to a diesel engine ethicist. what i say goes.
\_ I thought the picture was interesting.
\_ Yes! Excellent! *Now* young troll, you have walked across the
rice paper without leaving a mark! I'm so proud of you! -papatroll
\_ thanks, dad. now i must seek revenge against the evil red trolls.
\_ Yeah. Millions of potential murders. You horrible mocking
unbeliever, you! Uhm, Die now or something.
\_ sperm does not have the full genetic code to make a unique
human being.
\_ So is masturbation a half murder? Potential murder? Maybe an
attempted murder?
\_ think boolean operation. sperm by itself or an egg by itself
does not activate human life threshold function. 0 or 1.
\_ okay, what if I take a bunch of sperm and eggs, and mix
them around in a solution so that I get a thousand little
2-cell fetuses, and then flush it down the toilet. did
i just kill thousands of people?
\_ so when does human life start for you?
\_ so why do you only answer with another question?
\_ answering without proper context would not be
a good idea. A larger view of things would be better.
So when does human life start in your view?
\_ what does my opinion have to do with yours?
\_ the question to resolve is when life
starts. I want to get the other point of view
too to be able to properly contrast the two.
\_ i asked whether the sperm egg thing would
be killing, not for a compare/contrast.
\_ We're finally taking our nation back!!! -NRA supporter
\_ Uh, you're mixing your politics up. The NRA has nothing to do
with abortion.
\_ When sperm is outlawed, only outlaws will have sperm.
\_ i have more sperm than i need, but not as much as i want.
\_ if sperm is "potential people" then I practice genocide on a
daily basis
\_ sperm and fetus are completely different things...
\_ they are people, human, but are they US citizens?
\_ Probably not, since they are not (yet) born in the US.
pills", on the other hand, kill fertilized eggs. E.g. RU401.
\_ Interesting point. Its is not clear that the "equal
protection" clause would apply to unborn children.
But it is still murder, since killing a non-citizen
is the same as killing a citizen.
\_ why do you care if some fetus is aborted? i can
see why the mother cares, but why should you?
it's none of your damn business. what justification
do you have for considering a fetus a person?
the bible certainly doesn't. a fetus doesn't
breathe air. it is physically integrated into the
mom's body, sharing her bloodstream. damned if
the government has jurisdiction over the inside
of someone's body. A uterus is not US territory.
\_ I'm pro-choice, however, I do care if other people are
killing other third parties I don't know. Your logic
doesn't follow cleanly on that point.
\_ why should you care about Jane Doe or John Doe
being murdered elsewhere?
\_ because they're human beings.
\_ so are those in the womb. When does human life
start relative to conception? 9 months?
12 months? when?
\_ Life begins at birth, however, you're not a
real person until around age 8 or so (it varies)
at which point you are capable of feeling for
others. Once you can feel for others, you
become human and not just some animal on two
legs. Yes, this logically leads to post-natal
abortions. And why not?
\_ 8 years? Yes! If my 5 year old kid is
bratty, I have a right to kill him/her!
That would be so cool!
\_ a person's life begins when they're *born*.
duh. that's the standard by which society
has always judged these things. that's
why we celebrate birthdays, not conceptiondays.
why do you have to try to use your limited
medical knowledge to complicate things? what's
wrong with the obvious definition?
do you want us to start putting fetal tissue
in graves, and have church gatherings for it,
and put who knows what on the headstone?
\_ so you would support killing a "baby"
20 seconds before it is to be born
(such as 1 second before 9 months)?
\_ irrelevant. i don't *support*
killing anything, fetuses included.
if a woman goes into contractions,
and then kills the baby, jeez
you're reaching. but if there's a
line to be drawn it should be
sensible, like third trimester.
\_ what's the point in protecting
fetuses if it isn't human life
and human life begins at a birthday?
How dare you infringe on the rights
of women who just so happen to have
a bunch of cells in them. There
is no point protecting those cells.
\_ just consider this thought experiment. we have the ability
to produce test tube babies. so imagine a timed apparatus
containing egg and sperm, set to begin the conception at
12 midnight. then the janitor knocks it over. is that murder?
if not, why not? a fetus is a bunch of cells that will grow
into a baby. so is that egg and sperm, in that apparatus.
now replace that apparatus with a guy and girl. oh shit,
by not fucking each other they're murdering a potential baby!
\_ I believe this is called a "slippery slope argument" or
"argument from the heap", but I don't remember which. It's
a common fallacy. Basically you are saying the gov't
arbitrarily drew a sharp line dividing A and B. However,
A is to B as B is to C and B is to C as C is to D. Therefore
since A is illegal and that is pretty much the same as D,
then D should be illegal. Since making D illegal would be
absurd you conclude that making A illegal is also absurd.
Killing a person is illegal so since smart animals are similiar
to people killing them should be illegal too. Also since
dumb animals are similiar to smart animals, killing them
should be illegal. Insects are basically dumb animals
so killing insects should be illegal. But making the
killing of insects illegal is absurd so making murder
illegal is also absurd. By the way, I'm not pro-life,
I'm just pointing out that your argument is flawed. -emin
\_ i disagree. because there is a huge difference between
a seperate living organism (baby) and the organic parts
inside a mother that _can_ produce a baby.
\_ emin, i know the answer to this point and it's not one
that should be discussed right now, because we need to
talk about other things. -lotfi zadeh.
\_ That makes me very curious. What is the answer?
\_ Hah, hah, very funny, really. I didn't know other
sodans were at Zadeh's talk on Tuesday. -emin
\_ i was there, wasn't it? -lotfi zadeh.
\_ what's the definition of a fetus? 4 weeks after conception?
\_ okay, what if I take a bunch of sperm and eggs, and mix
them around in a solution so that I get a thousand little
2-cell fetuses, and then flush it down the toilet. did
i just kill thousands of people?
2 weeks after embryo?
\_ defined as ``a member of the species Homo sapiens, at any stage
of development, who is carried in the womb''
\_ so will this make using oral birth control illegal, since
those are fertilized eggs being flushed away?
\_ The common female birth control pills don't kill fertilized
eggs. They prevent eggs from being produced. "Morning-after
pills", on the other hand, kill fertilized eggs. E.g. RU-486.
\_ Bzzt. Wrong. on both counts. birth control pills
prevent fertilized eggs from attaching to the uterine
wall. RU486 causes the uterine wall to slough away,
thereby ending the pregnancy. Get a fucking clue.
\_ Actually, it looks like we both are right about the
common pills. Plus they also prevent eggs from being
fertilized. See
http://www.plannedparenthood.org/bc/YOU_AND_PILL.HTM#Basics
\_ I think it's not the government's business. I support the
mom-is-god until baby is given birth position. The bond
between mom and fetus is unique, and mom has to take all
responsibilities for it.
\_ i fully agree. an unborn fetus is not a person. it is not a
citizen of any country. hence, if the mother kills her own
fetus it's nobody else's business. if someone else kills it
or damages it against her will, that's another matter, but
we're protecting the mother's rights and not the damn fetus.
\_ Mom is not always god, because not all moms are good. Consider
moms that want to kill thier kids. Bad mothers. Murders.
\_ I agree, but God has given mom and unborn kid a unique bond,
and has given mom the full responsibility (including guilt)
for the unborn kid. Attempts for the clumsy government to
intervene will only backfire and make things worse.
\_ not all gods are good either. so?
\_ let us take a baby inside the womb about to be born. Lets take
it partially out. Lets kill it. Legal in the U.S. What's the
difference between a baby halfway out of the womb and a baby
outside the womb in terms of being "human", or having the act
be "legal".
\_ what if the woman miscarries the fetus? should woman be charged
with involuntary manslaughter?
\_ No, miscarriage is not the same a murder (or what you refer
to as abortion). A induced miscarriage would be murder though.
\_ You missed his/her point. If I accidentally ran someone down
with my car, killing him, I'm charged with involuntary
manslaughter, even though I clearly didn't mean to hit the
person. The poster is trying to stretch that to miscarriage
\_ it's not a stretch. what if the mom crashes her car and
the resulting injury causes a miscarriage? hmmmm?
\_ Well, I didn't use the word "stretch" in that I
disagreed with him (I'm undecided actually). But it
is a valid question, imho.
\_ the idea is "intent" or negligence.
\_ What if a pregnant woman goes to see a movie rated NC17?
Since her fetus is a "human being", wouldn't she be
violating some rules about bringing children there?
Can a pregnant woman be sued for child abuse if she
smokes or drinks (good Republican values) while
pregnant, since the House republicans are calling
the fetus a human being? |
| 11/23 |
|
| www.tennessean.com/sii/99/09/07/fetus07.shtml Bruner's finger just as Bruner finishes returning him to his mother's womb. Bruner, director of fetal diagnosis and treatment at Vanderbilt University Medical Center, was performing a cutting-edge procedure on the 21-week-old fetus. Bruner and Samuel's parents hope the surgery will alleviate the effects of spina bifida, a disabling birth defect in one or two of every 1,000 babies born. Because fetuses undergoing this procedure are so young -- Samuel could not survive outside his mother's womb -- this kind of surgery is gaining attention nationwide from the medical community and the media. During the procedure, surgeons remove the uterus from the mother, drain the amniotic fluid, perform surgery on the tiny fetus, replace everything and put the entire package back inside the mother. Medical ethicists have raised questions about the surgery because it is not a cure for spina bifida but poses the risk of death for the fetus. Parents who opt for the procedure say they want to do everything they can to help their children avoid a life of severe disability. |
| www.plannedparenthood.org/bc/YOU_AND_PILL.HTM#Basics There are two basic types-- combination pills and progestin-only pills. Both are made of hormones like those made by a woman's ovaries. Both kinds of pills require a medical evaluation and prescription. Combination pills usually work by preventing a woman's ovaries from releasing eggs (ovulation). Both types of pill can also prevent fertilized eggs from implanting in the uterus. Taking the Pill daily maintains the level of hormone that is needed to prevent pregnancy. EFFECTIVENESS The Pill is one of the most effective reversible methods of birth control. Certain herbs and medicines, including the antibiotic rifampin, certain drugs used to control seizures, anti-fungals (for yeast infections), or anti-HIV protease inhibitors may make the Pill less effective. Vomiting and diarrhea may also keep the Pill from working. Until you are sure, use an additional method of birth control. It is very important to remember that the Pill does not protect against sexually transmitted infections. Use a latex or female condom along with the Pill for protection against infection. GETTING THE RIGHT PILL You must see a clinician to tell whether you can take the Pill and what dosage is right for you. The clinician will discuss your medical history with you, check your blood pressure, and give you any other medical exam that may be needed. If the Pill is right for you, you likely will be given the lowest amount of hormone needed to protect you against pregnancy. Your clinician will adjust the prescription if you continue to experience side effects after a few months. Your prescription may need to be changed as your health needs change. Remember to tell any other clinician you may see that you take the Pill. THE COST The cost of an examination by a private doctor may range from $35 to $125. Pills and the exams usually cost less in a family planning clinic. SOME BENEFITS Taking the Pill is simple, safe, and convenient. Many women who take the Pill have more regular, lighter, and shorter periods. They say they are free to be more spontaneous and do not have to worry about becoming pregnant. The Pill offers many health benefits, including some protection against * infection of the fallopian tubes (pelvic inflammatory disease), which often leads to infertility * ectopic pregnancy * noncancerous breast growths * ovarian cysts * cancer of the ovaries * cancer of the lining of the uterus * troublesome menstrual cramps * iron deficiency anemia that results from heavy menses * acne * premenstrual symptoms, as well as related headaches and depression * excess body hair * vaginal dryness and painful intercourse related to menopause In fact, protection against developing cancer of the ovary or the lining of the uterus (endometrium) can last up to 30 years after stopping the Pill. Protection against both of these types of cancer increases with each year of use: Eight years of pill use reduces the risk of endometrial cancer by up to 80 percent Ten years of pill use reduces the risk of ovarian cancer by up to 80 percent The Pill may offer some protection against osteoporosis. SOME RISKS As with all drugs, there may be some undesirable side effects for some women taking the Pill. However, the Pill is much safer than pregnancy and childbirth for healthy women- except among smokers age 35 and older. Some side effects that usually clear up after two or three months of use include * bleeding between periods * weight gain or loss * breast tenderness * nausea -- rarely, vomiting * changes in mood Nausea and vomiting often can be reduced or eliminated by taking the Pill with the evening meal or at bedtime. Other possible side effects include * headache * change in sexual desire * depression Serious problems do not occur very often. Pill users have a slightly greater chance of certain major disorders than nonusers. The most serious is the possibility of blood clots in the legs, lungs, heart, or brain. Women on the Pill who undergo major surgery seem to have a greater chance of having blood clots. Blood clots in the legs occur with increased frequency for women and men who * have one or both legs immobilized * are confined to their beds It is important to stop taking the Pill about four weeks before a scheduled major operation. Do not start again while recuperating or while a leg or arm is in a cast. Rarely, women who take the Pill develop high blood pressure. Very rarely,liver tumors, gallstones, and jaundice (yellowing of the skin or eyes) occur in women who take the Pill. More detailed information about the use and risks of the Pill is provided in an insert included with each pill pack. THE PILL AND BREAST CANCER Most experts agree that taking the Pill does not increase the overall risk of developing breast cancer- no matter how long a woman takes the Pill or even if she has a close relative with breast cancer. Women with a history of depression may not be able to continue to take the Pill if it worsens the problem. EARLY WARNING SIGNS Serious problems usually have warning signs. If one occurs, report it to your clinician as soon as possible. These warning signs include * sudden or constant pain or redness and swelling in the leg * pain in the abdomen, chest, or arm * sudden shortness of breath or spitting up blood * eye problems such as blurred or double vision * worsening depression * yellowing of the skin or eyes (jaundice) PREGNANCY AND THE PILL There is a very slight chance that you will become pregnant even if you take the Pill. However, a missed period does not always mean you are pregnant, especially if you have not skipped any pills. It is unlikely that taking the Pill during early pregnancy will increase the risk of defects in the fetus. However, the likelihood of tubal pregnancy is greater if you become pregnant while taking the progestin-only pill. If you want to plan the timing of your pregnancy, use another form of birth control until your period becomes regular. It usually takes about one to three months for your period to return to the cycle you had before taking the Pill. After childbirth, your clinician can help you decide when to take the Pill again. Progestin-only pills will not affect your milk during nursing. Combination pills may reduce the amount and quality of milk in the first six weeks of breastfeeding. Also, the milk will contain traces of the Pill's hormones. It is unlikely that these hormones will have any effect on your child. Planned Parenthood Federation of America produces a wide variety of sexual health publications in English and Spanish. For medical questions, or to schedule an appointment with the nearest Planned Parenthood center, call toll-free 1-800-230-PLAN. For more information, please read our 36 Frequently Asked Questions. |