Berkeley CSUA MOTD:Entry 21065
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2024/11/23 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
11/23   

2001/4/23-24 [Transportation/Car] UID:21065 Activity:insanely high
4/22    Let's argue about the gas is cheaper than food thing some more.
                \_ it's really how much additional food you eat which is
                   the issue.  Also, if you bike and don't own a car at all
                   you save money on car payments, registration, maintenance,
                   insurance, as well as merely on gas.
                        \_ And your job choices are limited to where you live
                           or your housing choice to where you work.
                   \_ And you life is in the hands of soccer moms driving
                      80 MPH on local roads in thier SUVs. Personally,
                      I'd rather be in a car, at least I will *survive*
                      an accident. But then again, if you RIDE BIKE and
                      get killed, its not a big loss since you are no
                      longer in the gene pool to spread your stupid
                      luser genes.
                        \_ In terms of per exposure hour, you are much more
                           likely to die in a car than on a bike.  But
                           this will be my only response to this troll. -tom
                           \_ Hey tom, I'm genuinely interested in this --
                              do you have a URL or anything?   -mice
                http://www.kenkifer.com/bikepages/health/risks.htm _/
                                -tom
                                \_  Rock!  Thanks!  -mice
                           \_ okay this pro-bike page is flawed. the statistics
                              they use are based on national figures. i believe
                              riding a bike on silicon valley or city streets
                              and expressways is far more dangerous than riding
                              country roads or what have you. i don't put any
                              faith in those statistics. certainly not to the
                              point where i would spout them as if fact, as
                              tom is doing. i mean think about it. bikes aren't
                              going to be on freeways, where some large portion
                              of auto fatalities happen. nor will they be in
                              the most dangerous traffic patterns, in general.
                        \_ The soccer moms only do 45-50 in the 25 zones where
                           I live.a
        If you really believe that riding a bike for 20 miles will cost
        you more in increased food consumption than a gallon of gas you
        are quite retarded. For another thing, what food are we talking
        about? A bowl of rice or pasta is cheap, and bread is $1 a loaf.
        For a third thing, gas has pollution costs not captured in the
        pump price.
        \_ So does food production.  Anyway, who put you on the water and
           bread diet?  Last I checked, this isn't a Soviet prison.
        \_ This is stupid.  Biking takes longer than driving -- my time
           is valueable.  The added trip time * $/hour >  cost saved by
           not using gas.  If you're a burger flipper or some pathetic
           fryalator-operating schmo, then this may not be true for you,
           but in a general sense your argument is specious.
                \_ Or work for UC.
           \_ okay fine, you win. i don't ride bike either fwiw.
              except, i do for exercise/fun. so if you want regular
              exercise biking gives you that as a freebie. the problem
              is that our infrastructure makes biking the streets
              pretty unsafe and tedious.
              \_ On that point, I certainly agree.  The infrastructure
                 is absurdly skewed against bikers (and pedestrians, for that
                 matter) & etc....
                 \_ You make it sound like a conspiracy.
                    \_ It's not.  It has more to do with one simple little
                       fact: not enough people give a damn.  Deal with it.
                      between home and work, driving to/from work costs more
                      than biking.  (Of course time and safety is another issue
                      that varies between situations.)
        \_ BOOT TO THE HEAD!!!
           \_ YERMOM GAVE ME HEAD!!!
              \_ BOOT TO THE HEAD!!!
        \_ riding 100 miles will probably cost you a hotel stay. That's
           more expensive than the gas involved.
        \_ Plus driving also has car maintenance cost not captured in the pump
           price.
                \_ Which is why if you've ever been reimbursed for driving,
                   you'd know you get paid by the mile (usually about 25-35
                   cents), not for what you put in your tank.  Can you multiply
                   .3 x miles traveled and fill out a form?
                   \_ Exactly.  But since you don't get reimbursed for driving
                      between home and work, driving to/from work costs you
                      25-35 cents per mile while biking is a lot cheaper.
                      (Of course time and safety are other issues that vary
                      between situations.)
                        \_ If I didn't own a car or insisted on biking to work
                           I would need another million dollars to buy a house
                           near my job or I'd have to take a $40k pay cut to
                           work near my home.  Driving is cheaper than biking
                           if you don't work at McDonald's.  Here's some math:
                           I drive about 20k miles to/from work each year. At
                           $.35 per mile that's $7000.  Another $500 or so for
                           the bridge.  Driving is cheaper by far.  I can't
                           afford to ride a bike to work.
        \_ I take the shuttle between Hayward BART and Foster City to go to
           work.  Parking at BART is free.  Shuttle is free and is open to the
           general public.  Saves me gas money, car maintenance, bridge toll,
           and the time to wait in line for the toll booth instead of riding
           on the carpool lane.  Plus I can take a nap.
           \_ There aren't shuttles everywhere.  There isn't BART to/from
              everywhere.  There isn't always BART parking.  However, I am
              glad this works for you.  It doesn't work for many people.
2024/11/23 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
11/23   

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        \_ Not enough infrastructure for refueling.  Chicken and egg.
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www.kenkifer.com/bikepages/health/risks.htm
Basic Skills for Cyclists 10 Cycling Humor and Tales 11 Bicycling Surveys and Statistics 12 Links to Other Cycling Sites 13 Comments on This Page Is Cycling Dangerous? And it also leads to calls for mandatory helmet laws and for separate bike paths. Some of this fear stems from our own fears of driving cars in traffic among aggressive drivers. But for those who obey the traffic laws, cycling is actually safer than traveling in an automobile. Fearmongering Is a Major Problem Parade, the magazine which comes with the Sunday newspaper, published an article on April 11, 1999, that said One friend of mine is terrified of flying. The other day I saw this friend riding his bicycle in traffic without a helmet. Per miles traveled, bikes rank among the most dangerous forms of transportation. By relying on his "intuitive" assessment of risk, my friend made questionable choices. Opening a book by chance in the library recently, I found an article discussing how we misperceive danger. Fearmongering websites discussing bicycle safety have sprung up everywhere which distort the evidence. There are some published statistics which seem to prove that riding a bike is dangerous. John Pucher and Lewis Dijkstra wrote (in 14 Making Walking and Cycling Safer: Lessons from Europe), "The neglect of pedestrian and bicycling safety in the United States has made these modes dangerous ways of getting around. Pucher and Dijkstra could have used other government statistics instead which make bicycling appear 30 times safer, but they used pessimistic figures in order to argue for the construction of bicycle facilities. My Purpose in Writing This Web Page There is absolutely no way that I can furnish definite proof that bicycling is a safe activity. Those of us who bicycle on a regular basis while following the traffic laws know that it is a safe activity from years of experience, but we are also aware that other cyclists have frequent accidents, we assume due to different behavior. Nor can I do anything to reconcile my various sources of statistics. However, I think I can easily establish that cycling is much less dangerous that what the fearmongers insist and that it has compensating benefits which are more important than the risks involved. I think you will agree when you finish reading this that bicycling is very far from being the dangerous activity that the fearmongers like to make it appear. Why Fear Is Dangerous To some extent, this fear of cycling actually leads to additional deaths. Cycling Deaths Among Children In the 70's, the majority of cycling deaths happened to children. The 1978 NHTSA statistics show clearly the connection between age and death: Fatal Bike Accidents Age Group 1978 1992 1-9 238 109 10-19 422 219 20-29 92 98 30-39 43 117 40-49 16 83 50-59 17 58 60-up 21 93 Unfortunately, I don't have any information about the percentage of adult cyclists on the road in 1978. It could be true that more children rode bikes than adults in 1978, but I doubt it. First, most children ride bikes for only about ten years. Third, the cycling boom among adults had started in the late 60's; I certainly remember seeing more adult cyclists then than I do now. But even if more children were riding bikes than adults, I'm sure the adults were riding many more miles. During this period of time, thousands of adult cyclists were crossing the United States every year on the Bikecentennial trail. Climbing Adult Cycling Fatalities More recent statistics, such as the 1992 figures above, show a surprising change. The proportion of adults getting killed has risen dramatically even though the total number of deaths have dropped. In the early 70's, 2/3rds of the deaths were to children 16 or younger, now 2/3rds are to people older than 16. One important change has been our attitude towards drunken drivers. However, I also believe that there has been a decline in the amount of time that children spend cycling during the same time; I'm afraid that we're raising a generation of couch potatoes. None of these declines can explain the large increase in the number of adults killed while cycling; My experience in traveling by bike around the country tells me that we have a new generation of cyclists who no longer obey the traffic laws, so I think that their behavior is responsible for most of this change. The Importance of Vehicular Cycling You see, those of us who began riding in the 60's and 70's had a strong belief that bicycles should be operated as vehicles. As a result, we adopted the behavior of riding in traffic in a safe, visible, and predictable manner as operators of vehicles, according to the law. The effect of vehicular cycling can be seen in the following statistics from John Forester's Bicycle Transportation (2nd ed, 1994, pg 41): Accidents per Million Miles Child Cyclists 720 College-associated Adults 500 League of American Bicyclists 113 Cyclists' Touring Club of England 66 However, during the mid-80's, there was a shift in the message going out. Many of these newer riders did not learn that they had an equal right to use the road. At the same time, mountain bikes were introduced, making sidewalk riding more practical and making useful road speeds more difficult due to their heavy tires. Now I frequently see adult bike riders riding on the sidewalks, on the wrong (left) side, through red lights and stop signs without even looking, and at night without lights, all violations of the traffic laws and all behavior that they would not do when driving cars. It's quite ironic to see some well-dressed, responsible-looking adult wearing a helmet for safety and ignoring every law and safety rule. It's disgraceful behavior too: Andy and Barney used to arrest even the little kids in Mayberry who rode their bicycles on the sidewalk. Why Sidewalk Cycling is Dangerous People wonder how riding bikes on sidewalks can be dangerous. First, there is a greater chance of minor collisions with cyclists and pedestrians due to poorer visibility and restricted room and also a greater chance of falling down. However, the likelihood of a collision with a motor vehicle also increases. These accidents occur at intersections and driveways, the former more deadly. Unwilling to dismount and often unwilling to wait for the light, the bike rider starts across the intersection parallel to the main road, completely hidden from a turning motorist until the last second, when it's often too late for the motorist to stop. A study of these risks was made in 1994 and showed that sidewalk cycling is almost twice as dangerous as cycling in the street, and cycling against the traffic on the sidewalk is over four times as dangerous as cycling in the street. For a good discussion, see 15 The Dilemmas of Bicycle Planning. Pedestrians are safer than sidewalk cyclists because 1) they are moving more slowly, 2) they can look behind more easily, and 3) they can jump to one side. However, even if these sidewalk cyclists were as safe as pedestrians, they wouldn't be very safe, since seven times as many pedestrians are killed each year as cyclists and since pedestrians have more fatalities per mile of travel than cyclists. But not only does the cyclist have full rights to the road, but the cyclist is also safer on the road than the motorist. To show that accidents are avoidable, here is a list of the most serious kinds of bike-car collisions, the ones most likely to result in death, from a recent study ( 17 Crash-Type Manual for Bicyclists by Carol Tan): 1. In the first, the cyclist pulling out of a driveway has the responsibility of looking both ways and making sure that doing so is safe. Half of these accidents happened to very young children and most to children. In the second, a cyclist turning left in traffic needs to look behind and then move into the correct turning position or lane when it is safe to do so. If the rider is unable or afraid to get into that position, he can ride to the curb, dismount, and walk across. Fear of the third kind of collision, when the cyclist gets struck from the rear, encourages people to ride bikes on sidewalks or on the wrong side of the road. But the cyclist does not have to be the na...