12/21 Why are people anti-union? Every human product is ambiguous, that
doesn't mean we forbid ourselves from creation. Liquor is good
(relaxation, thinning blood), liquor is bad (insert standard args).
What it means is simple to state, but difficult to enact: we must
be aware of both sides of the story, and relaize that both have
merit.
\_ Communism, socialism, naziism, totalitarianism and right wing
fanatics are bad. They are evil. They have no redeeming
qualities. There is no two sides to this story. Supressing
the rights of the one in favor of the rights of the many is
wrong. There is no two sides to that story. Get you head out
of your arse.
\_ Union != Communism.
Union != Socialism.
Union != Naziism.
Union != Totalitarianism.
Banning unions requires you ammend the constitution to
nullify the freedom of assembly. That is one of the
elements to communism, socialism, naziism, and
totalitarianism
\_ As a concept I'm not opposed to unions. I think people need to
have a place to go to make sure things like worker safety are
taken care of. The reality is that unions today really only focus
on themselves as a political entity and not worker safety, rights,
or anything else unless worker benefits just happen to coincide with
the betterment of the union.
\_ Unions are based on socialistic principles about "collective"
power and "workers" rights. These things are directly opposed
to individual freedoms and the free market system.
\_ "Big business is based on capitalistic principles about "profit"
and "corporate" rights. These things are directly opposed to
individual freedoms and the free market system (since it's not
in business' interests to have free markets--c.f. Microsoft)"
\_ Monopolies are opposed to individual rights, but
in a true free market a monopoly will not last for
long.
Microsoft got to where it is at because its competition
made mistakes. Microsoft is slow losing ground,
and its not because of the government. Its because
they have made missteps in strategy allowing competitors
to gain ground.
If you don't like MS vote with your $s. That's what
I do.
\_ Nah. Unions are not necessarily bad. Unions empower the
individual against the collective power of big businesses.
Critical to the health of democracies is the ability and
freedom for individuals to form various organizations
including religious organizations such as churches,
professional organizations such as IEEE, recreational/
hobby organizations such as your local Linsux chapter,
and finally organizations like the Sierra Club or
NRA and also labor unions. These organizations give
individuals support and a collective voice in the issues
they care for. The membership should be at will.
Observe that dictators and authoritarian regimes hate
these kind of organizations and will always try to
destroy or control them. The Walesa-led union was
hated by the Polish communist regime back in the Soviet
era, and the china commies hate the local churches and
even the falungong. Authoritarian and undemocratic
Singapore does not allow unions except for a government-
controlled one. Without such organizations, the
individual is isolated, and powerless, and subject to
abuse and oppression by the only organization left -
the government. Unions help to balance the power of
another type of organization that sometimes abuses
the individual - i.e. big businesses. Come to think
of it, it is arguable that Singapore and present-day
China are two countries when an authoritarian government
and big businesses collude to abuse and exploit the
individuals.
Big Business helps individuals generate _/
wealth. Unions don't help anyone generate
anything. Big Business is what powers the
countries prosperity, not Unions. Unions
leach the profits of Big Buiness. Business
free and unrestrained by bureaucrats and
union bosses is critical for the health
democracy, freedom, liberty, prosperity.
Unions seek to destroy what good Business
has created.
\_ Yes. Because we all know that unions
segments. Thanks.
have a vested interest in destroying
good business. Pull you fucking head
out of your ass and grow a brain you
moron. Unions are a vehicle for
bargaining. Everyone bargains for
employment compensation, not just
UAW workers and other blue collar
workers. No shit, unions aren't
designed to generate profits the same
way water isn't used to fuel cars.
Maybe if looked "union" up in a
dictionary you'd understand. Unions are
guaranteed by the first ammendment. If
you're suggesting banning unions then
you certainly have no respect for our
democracy and freedom.
\_ Please don't break what I wrote into
segments. Thanks. I agree with you
that big business is great, generally
speaking.
\_ "Big business is based on capitalistic principles about "profit"
and "corporate" rights. These things are directly opposed to
individual freedoms and the free market system (since it's not
in business' interests to have free markets--c.f. Microsoft)"
\_ Monopolies are opposed to individual rights, but
in a true free market a monopoly will not last for
long.
\_ Ah yes, the magical invisible hand of the market. Do you
*ever* use your brain? -tom
Microsoft got to where it is at because its competition
made mistakes. Microsoft is slow losing ground,
and its not because of the government. Its because
they have made missteps in strategy allowing competitors
to gain ground.
If you don't like MS vote with your $s. That's what
I do.
\_ they try to hurt scabs and that is anti-competitive.
\_ That's wrong and the people who practice such
should be shot. But that's not the premise of
unions or collective bargaining.
\_ Membership in a Union is different than membership
in the IEEE or the NRA or a given religious institution.
1. In no industry is IEEE or NRA membership required
for getting or keeping your job. Try to be non
union in the automotive or trucking or teaching
industries and see how long you last. (They will
force you out or get you to join).
\_ Please don't compare IEEE to the NRA. There's
a stark difference in the practices in civility
and political influence between the two groups.
\_ sidenly i am wondering how many IEEE members are
in the NRA...Based on what ive seen i'll bet its
alot more than the average number for a random
group of people.
\_ Probably not. IEEE members are not the
"I love god and my family and go to church
with ma girlfriend every Sunday. On weekdays
my ma and pa come to ma school and watch
me play football cause I'm the star
quaterback. Then me and ma buds hop in my
Chevrolet and guy hunting on the weekends.
When I go to Texas A&M Iam going to go
join the Army ROTC and serve ma country and God.
Ma idol is George W. Bush. Because he
believes in family values." type people.
How many IEEE members do you know have the
Hank Hill personality and aspire to taking
over the family farm?
\_ The NRA doesn't advocate threatening
or maiming non-NRA members in times
of dispute. The IEEE doesn't either.
Unions do. That's the point.
\_ Some unions do, others don't. That's
the point.
2. The IEEE and the NRA do not engage in activities
like strikes, picketing, mass violence. These are
anti-competitive terrorist measures designed to
exploit business owners.
\_ Union == organization that provide a means of
collective bargaining.
Union != terrorism
Union != strikes (sometimes they do but that's
not the premise)
Union != Mass violence
Everyone pickets. Republicans picket, democrats
picket, pro-lifers picket, pro-choicers picket,
hippies picket, anti-gays picket.
\_ The means of bargaining is terrorism,
strikers, mass violence. Union bosses
uses thier lazy bum union members to
incite violence against management and
customers so that management will pay
thier ransom quicker and all the Union
members can get back to sitting on thier
arses. Wonder why all the jobs are going
overseas? Its because most US workers
hate hard work, they all want to get paid
sitting around being idle. Business can't
afford this.
\_ I didn't see any violence in the United
Airlines union.
\_ which one. pilots,flight attendants,
\_ I dare you to say that to a UAL Flight Attendant.
mechanics, etc have separate unions.
additionally, UAL flight attendants are
represented by a different union than say
Delta, for instance.
3. Union derived benefits for workers are like ransom
derived from hapless kidnap victims. The market
provides sufficient working conditions, Union
employees would prefer to sit on thier arses and
get paid rather than work, which is why they are
always striking.
\_ I dare you to say that to a UAL Flight Attendant.
Unions are a unholy menace to liberty and freedom
populated by lazy bums and lead by communists and
socialist who want to do away with the free market
in favor of state control of everything. They want
a world where every man is equal because every man
is a poor pathetic slob without hope. I prefer the
American dream, where every man is equal because
every man is rich with the hope of achieving all
that he wants.
\_ Unions are bad because the mob tends to control them.
Enuff said.
\_ As opposed to presidential elections.
\_ In a perfect world, Unions would form to empower the workers
and make the workplaces more tolerable, and then they would
dissolve until they were needed again. In our world, unions
form to solve problems, then their officers get used to the
power they wield, and they refuse to dissolve the union,
seeking instead to increase their power and influence. More
often than not, what we need are unions to depose the corrupt
and corpulent unions that now exist. --erikred
\_ but of course none of the businesses are corrupt or coruplent.
\_ Bingo! Give that man a prize!
\_ You've been watching too many movies. People don't like unions
because the "traditional" union supported promotion and benefits
by seniority as opposed to skill/performance. Think "tenure."
Plus unions try to get the most from their employers which
sometimes means they conflict. Most people would accept some
pain to avoid conflict. A repo man spends his life getting
into tense situations.
\_ MORE! MORE! MORE! |
http://csua.com/feed/