12/20   just out of curiosity, how many people at berkeley give a rats ass
        about grad student unionization one way or the other?
                        -alum
        \_ unions suck. ban unionization.
        \_ onions suck. ban onionization.
        \_ It's stupid.  Grad students striking only hurts undergrads.  They
           don't strike from their own classes or research.
                \_ How else do you propose they improve their working
                   conditions?  Talk at the UC a lot?  Well, that hasn't
                   conditions?  Talk at the UC a lot?  Well, that hasn't
                   worked or there wouldn't be a onion.  Teaching is many
                   worked or there wouldn't be a union.  Teaching is many
                   student's only realistic means of support during
                   gradschool, and they deserve decent compensation
                   and reasonable working conditions.  If you knew the
           \_ has the berkeley grad student union pulled in people who
                   egregious dirty tricks that the UC has played on grad
                   student instructors you'd support their strikes instead
                   of feeling sorry for the undergrads.
                   \_ "many students"is the key phrase here.  As an engineering
           \_ has the berkeley grad student onion pulled in people who
           don't teach?  i go to another school now as a grad student, and
           have noe intention of teaching, and am constantly pestered
           by the onion people.  as far as i can tell, the "movement" is
           a political power play by the large international onion who is
                       grad student I make a very comfortable living wage from
                       my stipend for doing work i love that leads to a
                       financially valuaeble degree, and has flexible hours.
                       If the TA's from the humanities departments who are
                       being taken advantage of came to me and said "we have
                       a problem, and we would like your support in our cause,"
                       i might have sympathy.  instead they lie and say that
                       they want to "make the engineering department a better
                       place"and such to trick us into joining.  as far as i
                       can tell, the only people who would really benefit are
                       those who are paying for it: the union bosses on the
                       outside who think grad student unionization is a good
                       way to get their numbers up. i go to a private school
                       though.  i was wondingering if people at berkeley feel
                       the same way about UAW that i feel about
                       HERE, the people sponsoring our unions effort.
                        [fixed most major spelling errors.  -motd spelling god]
                   \_ Striking isn't it.  As an alum who suffered through one
                      of those ridiculous strikes years ago I could give a damn
                      about the grad students.  The undergrads suffered.  The
                      University didn't suffer a bit.  The profs didn't.  The
                      grad students sure as hell didn't.  They were trying
                      hard to get undergrads to boycott classes but they
                      didn't boycott their own.  What a total crock.  Grad
                      student strikes do *nothing* towards improving grad
                      student working conditions.  I do not support them in any
                      way.  When the grad students do a *real* walkout on their
                      own classes and their own research for their own profs
                      that they work for on a daily basis then they might get
                      some sympathy but the phony strikes don't cut it.  They
                      can bite me.  Actually I was around for several of these
                      _fake_ grad student strikes.  Just a bunch of
                      hypocritical noise.  I did what my graduate instructors
                      did, not what they said to do.  I went to class.
                    \_ You miss the point, grad students want to be doing their
                       research, it is the most important part of being a
                       graduate student and is essential to advancing their
                       career and education. Grad students might want to be
                       taking classes, it is often neccessary to meet class
                       requirements to graduate, and classes can be useful, and
                       fun. Graduate students rarely want to be teaching a
           \_It's all controlled by the mob. Teamsters have nothing to do with
           higher education. Ban the unions.
                       classes, it is not what they came to gradschool to do.
                       The fact that graduate students in less fortunate fields
                       need to spend so much time teaching classes sucks, it is
                       a waste of time for them and they do not recieve anything
                       near the compensation that their level of education would
                       imply in "The Real World" (tm). Perhaps striking is an
                       ineffective way for graduate students to get their
                       grieveness addressed, but, I do think they have some
                       legitimate complaints which should be addressed. With
                       respect to the impact that these strikes have on
                       undergrads, yes, we do suffer. But guess what, undergrad
                       instruction at Cal is nothing to write home about anyway,
                       a fair number of our professors couldn't teach their way
                       out of a cardboard box, our classes are absurdly over
                       crowded, and at least in computer science, the amount
                       of money we get for instructional is laughable. A few
                       grad students walking out isn't exactly going to ruin
                       an otherwise unblesmished record.
                        \_ So you're saying that since undergrad education at
                           Cal already sucks, grad students should go ahead and
                           feel free to strike as they're not hurting anyone
                           anyway?  If the strike is ineffective, then why do
                           it?  I don't know where you get the idea undergrads
                           aren't hurt.  Just about everyone I knew at the time
                           hated the grad student strike and got fucked pretty
                           badly during finals.  And no I don't have any
                           sympathy whatsoever for the poor dears who became
                           grad students.  Teaching for dirt wages is part of
                           the deal.  It wasn't a secret and they can go get a
                           new career with that Real World Salary anytime they
                           want.  Pretty much just boo fucking hoo.
           \_ has the berkeley grad student union pulled in people who
              don't teach?  i go to another school now as a grad student, and
              have noe intention of teaching, and am constantly pestered
              by the union people.  as far as i can tell, the "movement" is
              a political power play by the large international union who is
              sponsoring the whole thing here.  does this pretty much describe
              the suituation with UAW and UC grad students?
              \_ Your ass has been formatted.  -motd formatting god
              \_ It's all controlled by the mob. Teamsters have nothing to
                 do with higher education. Ban the unions.
                 \_ no.  destroy the mob.