11/15   Please read the text without ragging on the source.  Dr. Laura had
        the easiest to read (in terms of fonts, etc) copy of this quote:
        http://drlaura.com/letters/index.html?mode=view&tile=1&id=115
        Any opinions on this quote?  Was Tyler full of shit?  Where do you
        think we stand on Tyler's timeline if he had it right?
        \_ Tyler is full of B.S. True democracy in a country where the people
           are 100% educated won't vote for more money.  That happens in
           the U.S., in Philipines, in Mexico, etc, where the average voter
           has no clue of what's happening.  We haven't even progressed to
           true democracy yet, much less going on to bondage again.
           \_ unless by "100% educated" you mean 100% brainwashed into your
              or my particular ideology (and even the latter would be a high
              price to pay for what wouldn't really be a democracy), you,
              like most people, have an entirely irrational faith in
              education. -crebbs
           \_ You missed the point. "true democracies" dont last, you always
              degenerate into the haves and the havenots, which then
              accelerates like how the US is going now.
              \_ Its a moot point, since the US is not and has never been
                 a true democracy. The US is a representative republic.
                 A true democracy is not much different than mob rule. A
                 simple majority often makes hasty and ill considered
                 choises. The founding fathers knew this and created a
                 system of government resistant to drastic changes that
                 can plague a democracy.
        \- that quote does better on style than substance. the fall of athens
        has a lot to do with the peloponessian war. See Thucydides and
        Kagan IV: The Fall of the Athenian Empire. You know being invaded
                genreation, that men intheir prime could not be found or
        [by the macedonians] also didnt help. I dontthink we need to worry
        about invasion. The point about populism is interesting. See the
        rule on land reform legislation in Republic of Rome. --psb
           \_ It's not across from France anymore?  Where did they move it to?
                \- here is an interesting quote from Kagan:
                "It is revealing of the state of Athenian politics that
                the Athenians believed they must seek such qualities
                ["prudent cautious, moderate leadership"] in an earlier
                genreation, that men in their prime could not be found or
                trusted to provide it.". --psb
        \_ The U.K. wasnt "invaded" either, but it is no longer where
           it once was
           \_ It's not across from France anymore?  Where did they move
              it to?
           \_ Thanks to the liberals who turned it into a socialist
              welfare state.
              \_ The British Empire fell long before that. Unless you
                 are calling Winston Churchill a liberal.
                 \_ It was still an empire into the early 50's, well
                    after Churchill was out of power.
           \_ The British EMPIRE is anti-democratic.  That's why it fell.
              \_ Actually, it fell because it actually tried to be
                 somewhat nice to the people it conquered, rather than
                 ruling with an iron fist forever.
                 The last straw was of course the massive draining of
                 resources due to WWII.
                 \_ Yeah sure, massive draining of resources from the
                    colonies to the European front.  When the Japanese
                    Imperial Army came with 30000 soldiers, the 80000 Brits
                    ran so fast down the Malayan peninsula, the Japanese
                    soldiers had to grab bicycles from the locals to
                    keep up with the retreating British (note
                    that the terrain in Malaysia is unsuitable for
                    armored vehicles).
                 \_ They will face a problem 10x worse than what the
                    French had when they persisted in their anti-
                    democratic ways in Algeria and IndoChina.
                 \_ Nice?  Please explain in what ways the British were "nice"
                    conquerers.  Taken a history class anytime in this life?
                    \_ yeah, thats a pretty fucking dumb thing for someone
                    to say. it's always hard to tell on the motd who is a troll
                    and who really is a moron.  there are so many true morons
                    and so many really devoted trolls who have honed there
                    skills over the years and they both seem to like to post
                    to the motd. -troller
        \_ The democracy/republic which is the United States will persist
           as long as most people feel that the U.S. is the best country to
           be a citizen of on this planet.  It also persists on a common,
           nation-wide feeling of what is right and wrong, what is fair and
           not fair, and that honest, hard-working people can better
           their situation in a reasonable way, in the face of all that
           is wrong and not fair.  Voting to give yourself money is
           generally accepted as corrupt and embarrassing, unless you
           have a good reason that other people will buy.  For example,
           most people will vote to give veterans money, but most people
           will not vote to give only rich people tax breaks.  People
           may want to abolish taxes, but most people understand
           this will upset the system and create a situation where
           the U.S. is no longer a great place to live.  Anyways, the
           bottom line is that Tyler makes a lame, inflammatory college
           frosh argument that you'd hear in section and from your
                \_ Explain then, why every democracy in existence has
           a higher tax rate now than it did 50 years ago?  And higher
           50 years ago than it was 100 years ago, (obviously you can
           keep going with this).
           \_ Interesting trend.  Explanation not available.  Opinion
              unchanged.