6/12    \_ uctt, are you a contractor? what do you do?
        \_ full time employee at my own startup now. never contracted in my
           life.  but i did spent some time in big 5 consulting managing
           various e-Commerce projects and our team of consultants from big
           5 was always much better than the employees in the client company
           (that's why they were paying us $275-$350/hr to be there) -uctt
                \_ No.  They were paying that so management could have someone
                   to blame when it all falls to shit.  No one pays you more
                   because you're more skilled.  They don't have a basis to
                   judge your skill level.
                        \_ of course that's a big part of it.  we'll take
                           the blame if it all "falls to shit".  it's called
                           taking RESPONSIBILITY and i'll take the
                           responsiblity for a project in exchange for the
                           big bucks that they have to pay us.  i've
                           met morons in consulting.  i've met a lot more
                           morons that work as full time employees for the
                           client. -uctt
                           \_ You know why that is, right? The companies
                              that don't need your expertise don't hire
                              you. If there's a better staff in house then
                              likely they'll go with that. Granted,
                              sometimes management does stupid things
                              anyway, but I bet this helps explain your
                              experiences. --dim
                                \_ Holy cow!  I find myself agreeing 100% with
                                   dim.  Hell has just frozen over.
                                   \_ I think it's a great idea to hire
                                      consultants when the current staff
                                      is better.  What's the matter with
                                      you?!?
                                        \_ Sorry, what was I thinking.  I'll
                                           call uctt right away to pay more to
                                           get less.
                        \_ that's why nearly all of the largest and *best*
                           companies in the world employs a large number of
                           consultants.  why doesn't sun, cisco, microsoft,
                           oracle, hp, ibm, etc... all just hire the best
                           talent and do all of their work in house?
                           certainly they have the money to hire pepole
                           right? why do they have consulting companies in
                           there if the consulting companies easily cost 2x
                           as much as their normal employees?  oh...b/c
                           you know something that bill gates, john
                           chambers, scott mcnealy, larry ellison, etc.
                           doesn't know right? -uctt
                           \_ Your definition of "best" is what?  You mean the
                              way IBM took a huge fall in the 80s?  The way
                              Sun, Oracle and others needed the DoJ to level
                              the playing field?  The way HP is falling apart?
                              Or that Cisco had to buy Arrowpoint because they
                              couldn't build their own load balancing switches?
                              You're confused.  Big != better.  The *best*
                              companies are the ones you've probably never
                              heard of.  You'll know who they are 5 years from
                              now.  These large but not best companies use
                              consultants because the *best* people wouldn't
                              work for them at any price.  I'd be ashamed to
                              have IBM or Oracle on my resume.  The *best*
                              people have all left these giant ugly slow beasts
                              for startups.  It's still happening today.  Don't
                              spend too much time convincing yourself how great
                              you are.  The day you meet the people working
                              for the *best* companies will be the worst day of
                              your life as your giant ego comes crumbling and
                              tumbling down and all of IBM's horses and all of
                              Oracles men won't be able to put it back together
                              again.  The emperor wears no clothes.  I know the
                              exact same thing your top 5 list of CEOs knows:
                              that their employees suck, they can't hire the
                              best so they have to pay vampires and leeches to
                              do it for them and just pass along the costs to
                              their customers.  It's people like you that make
                              software and hardware so expensive for no real
                              reason.  You're not a value-add.  You're a value
                              minus.
                                \_  who are you???  Preach it brother!  you rock.
                                    - anonymous#1fan
                                        \_ Thanks.  Just calling it like I see
                                           it.
                              \_ Uh ... gee!
                              \_ so what are the best companies right now
                                 that i haven't heard of but i will hear
                                 about 5 years from now?  and why is it that
                                 most of the upper level executives in large
                                 corportations have worked in consulting at
                                 some point in their careers?  just name a
                                 few of these companies and we'll continue
                                 the discussion... -uctt
                                 the discussion...but i can tell you right
                                 now that either their executive staff is
                                 made up of former consultants, many of
                                 their developers are former consultants, or
                                 they just don't have enough cash for
                                 outside consultants....YET.  all of the
                                 successful companies have used consultants
                                 very heavily and they cannot all be wrong.
                                 -uctt