2/9     Someone recently asked me to join their net startup.  They've
        already got three programmers, an internal prototype with the
        requisite software and hardware, but only did the incorporation
        paperwork about five months ago.  I have their business plan and
        they seem to have pretty good connections.  The programmers are
        all grad students and the others are MBA students and they seem
        pretty knowledgable and cool.  If I don't put any money in, what
        can I, as a fourth programmer who's also a grad student, expect as
        fair compensation?  (I was thinking $40-60K as opposed to $60-80K
        for a corporation or better-funded startup, but I'm really not
        sure what I should get in terms of equity ...)
                \- IMHO, anyone giving you advice [as opposed to meta-advice
                like me] is deluded ... I dont think you can possibly give
                advice based on this info. I think the only way to decide what
                if fair is to compare your skills, contribution and risks to
                the other people and find out what they are getting compared
                to you. --psb
        \_ This company should have funding by now unless they don't for a
           particularly good reason. If they have funding, there is NO reason
           for the startup to pay full fair. As a graduating undergraduate,
           I'm looking between 55k and 80k. 60-65k seems to be about what most
           startups are offering. Being a grad student, you should be able
           to get about the same salary, perhaps with a bit more equity, but
           not necessarily. If they don't have funding, you probably won't
           be able to get paid for a while, and you should get a lot more
           equity. Maybe something like 0.2%-1.0%. If they have funding,
           expect between .03%-.25%.
        \_ psb nailed this one.
                \_  ppl seem *really* adverse to talking about stock options
                    that is too bad since so many are in the dark about this
                    sort of thing and often get screwed by the beancounters.
                    You have to ask "how many oustanding shares exist?"
                    You have to ask "how many outstanding shares exist?"
                    Then you ask what range the negotiator was thinking about.
                    Then you put out what you were thinking, in a way
                    where you don't come off as demanding, but also to
                    let him/her know you are not to be fux0red with.
                    Given the circumstances you describe (I don't know
                    what kind of work experience you have or how many
                    years)  I'd ask for .25 to 1%, with 2 to 4 year vesting
                    given that the company has 10 to 50 million
                    outstanding shares, which is about what I've gathered is an
                    industry standard.  Call me delusional. - tpc
                        \_ They won't give you 2 year vesting at a company
                           this young.  You'll be fully vested before they
                           go public.  Not a chance.  1%??  You better be
                           prepared to live on site for the next two years
                           for that.  This shit doesn't come free.  I'd rather
                           have my .20% and a life, thanks.  The odds are so
                           heavily stacked against a startup making it that
                           you'd have to be ice cold brain dead stupid to give
                           up your life for it in the slightest.  -startup guy
                           \_ For a fresh hire to get 1%... that's a lot. But
                              if you're a senior guy, you can get 1% and keep
                              a 40-50hr work week. Most fresh hires I know
                              get offered 10k shares but think that is really
                              good and don't even know how many are outstanding
                                \_ 1% is stunningly high.  If you're a senior
                                   guy and getting 1%, you're living on site.
                                   If you're not, the company is dead because
                                   they didn't give you 1% to sit on your ass.
                                   You're getting 1% to do 5 people's worth of
                                   work.  They can give that 1% to 5 or 10
                                   other people (.2% - .1% each) so no you're
                                   totally stupid if you think you're getting
                                   a huge number like that and going home at
                                   5pm.  They don't have enough options left
                                   to give to others if they give every 40
                                   hour/week slacker that much.  I've been
                                   there and done that in several startups and
                                   am a "senior guy".  I'd like to know the
                                   name of the funded startup that's giving
                                   away options like water in a rain storm.
        \_ This is all absurd!  When negotiating and asking for percentage
           of common stock, you gain very little.  You do not know what
           dilution will do to your share long term.  The only people that
           can demand PERCENTAGE ownership are the first X formative guys...
           If you want to get it right, you need plans, business case data,
           etc. and then take a guess at what anti-dilution various investors
           (a co-founder) - but let's say on the 1st floor (< 6-months-old)?
           will get...give it up.  Just take the number, the total authorized
           shares, and the outstanding.  Then ask for the current valuation,
           and the est. IPO price (you prolly can't get this either).  Then
           decide how much you would stand to make and pad actual salary
           accordingly.  Get it up front as cash or get in at the start for
           like 5-10% and ridiculously low salary if you believe in the
           product / can afford to play.
        \_ hello, reality check.  You guys are talking about 6-person,
           < 6-month-old startups, right?  I'm getting the impression
           people are referring to 20-50 person startups already past
           their first round of VC funding.  Is it really .1-.3% vested
           in (let's say) 3 years for a company that young?  Is that
           what's normal for being - not necessarily on the ground floor
           (a co-founder) - but on the "1st floor" (< 6-months-old)?
           \_ What's normal is how well you negotiate and nothing more.  The
              "industry standard" is a myth.