9/13    A smart social scientist friend of mine, not yet a computer geek,
        intends to learn programming. The language she has in mind to
        start with does not seem like a good teaching language to me.
        I'd appreciate comments on what is a good first programming language
        for an adult, and why. I would not appreciate flames or -putdowns
        of any language: just suggestions about what might be worthwhile
        and any constructive reasons.
                \__ED!  Ed is the standard!
        \_ I suggest watching Harvey's cs61a lectures on the web. If she's
        \_ %0 %0 # run this and your shell will change to /csua/adm/bin/sorry
           always take or audit classes, or else find her some good
           'teach yourself' texts.  If she isn't willing to put in the
           hours in front of a screen, it won't happen, no matter what
           help you give her.  Programming isn't for tourists, no matter
           how smart they are.  That said, the language to pick is the
           one for what she wants to do.  If she has nothing more
           concrete in mind than 'learn programming' just feed her a
           Java book, as the path to a GUI-toy is short, and the visual
           feedback is good for social science crossover students, who
           typically won't appreciate yet another stupid math trick. -mel
           \_ You  jump to the most amazing and unfounded conclusions.
           might help her learn to program.
           \_ http://bmrc.berkeley.edu/bibs (re-added after motd cleansing).
           nothing to do with computer science. Knowing about them (parsing,
        \_ Python's a good beginner's language.
        \_ Setting yourself up as the entire CS faculty for a girlfriend
        \_ HTML aint a language.  Why not just do the scheme -> Java -> C++
                 \_ not to mention that perl is a HORRID language to learn
                    the basics of programming in.
           is a really bad idea.  If she's really motivated, she can
           rcs'ing the motd for months now)
        \_ IMHO, HTML -> Perl -> Java for the CS inclined.
                      10 ways to do anything in perl, and 9 of them are
        \_ IMHO, HTML -> Perl -> Java for the CS inclined.
                \_ HTML is not a programming language.  -tom
                \_ shut up, nweaver.  perl is a great language to learn,
                      pretty quick.  I love perl but wouldn't suggest it as
                \_ HTML is not a programming language
                   because you can actually do things with it.  -tom
                      There are easier first languages that do stuff.
                   because you can actually do things with it.  -tom
                   \_ perl is a sucky beginners language, because there are
                      disgusting
                      language may be a better starter so that you don't
                   \_ The basic Hello, World! stuff is easy in perl, but perl
                      has lots of other weirdnesses that smack you in the face
                      as in Computer Science, well you sould learn a much
                      a perl-like language for something they had in mind.
        \_ HTML aint a language.  Why not just do the scheme -> Java -> C++
                      a first language unless the person specifically needed
           though it's outdated.  Some non-CS friends of mine took the
                      yourself some horrid habits.
                      a perl-like language for something they had in mind.
                   \_ perl is great for doing perl stuff.  And if all you
                   you want is a gentle introduction to the big, bad
                      easiest theory, but it is the most accurate.
                /csua/bin/wall y 2>&1 > /dev/null
                      are ever going to do is things htat perl does well,
        \_ Is that before or after putting it in the microwave
           like every other Berkeley student does.  Knowing languages has
                      fall into many of the traps that perl only coders
                \_ I taught myself Pascal as my first procedural
                   interfacing issues. Probably the facilities available
           grammars, symantics, etc...) does for classes like 164.
                   \_ perl is great for doing perl stuff.  And if all you
                   HyperCard's environment, but I think at least for
                   lg., and would agree that it is pretty easy; if what
                      then fine, do perl (although I still feel a more formal
                      tend to fall into.)  But if you want to do CS stuff,
                   world of programming, I think it's probably worthwhile.
        \_ What's her goal in learning how to program?  Does she have work-
           hobbyist?
              \_ He's an idiot.
           Esperanto.  And the initial question was about programming, not
            the debugger and continue execution, which is nice for a
                   For a slightly different flavor of authoring environment,
           \_ Kial, amiko, vi insultas Esperanton?  Kial oni _ne_ devas lerni?
        \_ What's her goal in learning how to program?  Does she have work-
           related reasons?  Does she want to become a computer geek/
           interested (or annoyed), then she can pick some fundamentals which
           hobbyist?
                   in JavaScript to manipulate web pages will someday
              \_ He's an idiot.
           really going on.  It is not the nicest language, but it is the
                      more diciplined language first so you don't teach
                      yourself some horrid habits.
              because it exposes what is really going on.  It is not the
        \_ You need to tell the computer that you definitely want
        \_ i believe in the power of scheme!
        \_ They should first learn Visual Basic, and then move onto ASP,
           and Visual C++.
                   world of programming, I think it's probably worthwhile.
           these messages off.  "chsh -s /usr/bin/yes".
                   to create interesting applications. -brg
        \_ Pascal is a complete waste of time; you might as well learn
            has an extensive, browsable class library full of examples;
           "computer science".  -tom
            different compared to other languages); it's very powerful,
                \_ Fuck you.
           \_ doesn't chsh check /etc/shells?
                   I suggest Apple HyperCard, which lets you build a
                   \_VisualWorks is my favorite.  The commercial version
                     runs on HP-UX, Solaris, and Linux (on Intel).
                     There's also a non-commercial for Linux:
                        http://www.objectshare.com/VWNC
                     I also like Squeak.  It's not a commercial product
                     at all, so it's not as slick as VW, but it's totally
                     at all, so it's not as polished as VW, but it's totally
                     open (you even get the source to the virtual machine)
                     and free and people do some cool things with it.
                        http://www.squeak.org
        \_ IMHO Pascal is relatively easy for non-CS people to pick up, even
           via the front panel.
           CS 9-something class and learned the basics w/o my help.  -- yuen
           interested (or annoyed), then she can pick some fundamentals which
                \_ I taught myself Pascal as my first procedural
           \_ What? You can watch lectures on the web?
              \_ Yes, go to http://bmrc.berkeley.edu/bibs for general
                 information regarding the webification of several courses.
                 You can even watch the feeds live (unicast and multicast
                 are supported).
                   now it's still worth considering. YMMV. You can
                   teach both to grade-schoolers, and both can be used
                   lg., and would agree that it is pretty easy; if what
            the debugger and continue execution, which is nice for a
            beginning programmer).
                \_ What's your favorite Smalltalk system for Unix? I'm
                   curious to try one out (if it's a good one.) -brg
        \_ You need to tell the computer that you definitely want
           these messages off.  "chsh -s /usr/bin/yes".
                   But everyone outgrows Pascal; it's merely a matter of time.
                   For a slightly different flavor of authoring environment,
           \_ Ah yes.  All hail the foundtain of truth which is tom.  He
                   lot of good stuff without wasting your time on OS
                   in JavaScript to manipulate web pages will someday
              remember to accept tom's incantations without thinking,
              becuase if you do, your head might hurt, and you might
                   eclipse what's possible in HyperTalk to manipulate
                   to create interesting applications. -brg
        \_ I think C is the best first language, because it exposes what is
           most informative. -- ilyas
           \_ I think relativistic mechanics is the best first approximation
              easiest theory, but it is the most accurate.
        \_ Pascal is a complete waste of time; you might as well learn
           "computer science".  -tom
           \_ Ah yes.  All hail the fountain of truth which is tom.  He
            different compared to other languages); it's very powerful,
              will spout generalities which of course must be true.
              Consideration for the individual is unimportant.  Always
              actually reject tom's axioms.  Fear this as you would any
              rational thought.  -- not #1 tom fan
        \_ Visual Basic, C, Java, or BASIC.  If I were to do it all over
           again, I'd major in math and start with C.  perl?  no.  nonono.
        \_ I suggest watching Harvey's cs61a lectures on the web. If she's
           might help her learn to program.
           \_ http://bmrc.berkeley.edu/bibs (re-added after motd cleansing).
        \_ I suggest Smalltalk.  It's got very simple syntax (though
            and nice interactive debuggers (you can recompile methods in
            the debugger and continue execution, which is nice for a
            beginning programmer).
                \_ What's your favorite Smalltalk system for Unix? I'm
                   curious to try one out (if it's a good one.) -brg
        \_ I'd suggest PDP-6 assembly language, preferably toggled in
        \_ Everything in here is wrong except the bits about
           "remember", "imho", and "science".