9/2     Can somebody point me to web sites that has tutorials on BGP, OSPF,
        and other routing protocols?  I have read the RFCs, but they are
        not really written with teaching in mind.  Thanks.
        \_ You can try reading the lecture notes at
           http://www-inst.eecs.berkeley.edu/~ee122
           but Kevin Fall was the worst professor (if that's what you call
           him) I've ever had at Berkeley so I don't know how much you'll
           learn from that.  Maybe you should buy the 122 book.
           \_ Yes, he was the worst prof ever. But he didn't give any grade
              below a C-, even if you didn't take the final.
           \_ Worse than Alan Smith?
              \_ I know this 4.0gpa, 17 A-pluses guy who thinks Alan
                 Smith's class is great.
                 \_ You can't???
                 \_ Well, if your primary interest is continuing your string
                    of A-pluses, rather than learning something, Smith *is*
                        \_ Learning is worthless if you can't show it off with
                           good grades.  If you're not getting good grades,
                           you're wasting your time in school.  There's very
                           little you can learn in school that can't be learned
                           out of school.  The only difference is good grades
                           are evidence of having learned something.  A big
                           "yeah whatever, go fuck yourself" for anyone who
                           brings up the old line about not wanting to work
                           for anyone who would dare be stupid enough to ask
                           your gpa.  That's just sour grapes.
                           \_ Not true.  By example, I have two friends in
                              CS.  One has a 3.8 and the other has a 3.1.
           \_ I took that ee122 w/ kfall.  I rather liked the project.
              It wasn't a standard Berkeley CS "Fill in your code here"
              project.  It was: read the rfc, write code according to
              SPEC.  This made me actually feel like I was doing something
              useful.  I still use and am developing my webserver today.
              My only gripe was that the lecture notes were in a format
              (converted .ppt -> .ps) which took too long to print - paolo
              \_ And then there are those idiots who think they can print
                 PDF files straight to a postscript printer.
                 \_ You can't???
                              It's pretty amazing how someone with a 3.8
                              can ask some of the stupidest questions in
                              the world but I personally wouldn't trust
                              my life to him.  He once asked me if you
                              could cast an Integer in Java to a string by
                              Integer i = new Integer(5);
                              System.out.println((String)i);
                              How pathetic, yet he still has a 3.8.
                              The guy with the 3.1, on the other hand, is
                              a hell of a lot more trustworthy as he
                              doesn't do idiotic things like cast Integer's
                              to String's
                    great for 162 . . . just memorize his lectures so that
                    you can regurgitate them back at exam time, and you'll do
                    fine.  Not to mention that you didn't have to spend too
                    much time on those pesky NACHOS projects, because they
                    were worth practically nothing.
                    \_ He buys Smith's argument that for cs162 class
                       projects, simulation is more useful than synthesis
                       (ie. NACHOS) in the "real world".
                       \_ "Real world" arguments concerning Smith would have
                          been convincing if he didn't spend his lectures
                          reminiscing about paging out to drum memory on his
                          IBM 1401 . . . for him, the real world stopped
                          somewhere around 1972.
           \_ Dude, you could've taken 122 from Jean Walrand.  Count your
              blessings.
        \_ http://www.cisco.com
        \_ Cisco has a CD set they give out at their courses.  It's pretty
           good if you ignore the marketing garbage and product info on it.
           Mine's marked "Sales Order Number DOC-CONDOCCD" if that's any
           help.  -John
        \_ Still think that kfall wasn't that bad, even if you selectively
           edit this file.  the webserver project was good, it wasn't an
           "insert code here" type of project, it had to be written from
           scratch to the rfc 1945 spec.  If you want a good book, DO NOT
           BUY Peterson & Davie, kfall himself recommended a book by Keshav.
           - paolo
           \_ i think the only good criticism of the class was not that kfall
              assigned real programming projects but that he wasnt upfront
              about it at the beginning of the semester.  The class had
              not previously had as involved a programming project as when he
              taught it and such could not be expected from the catalog.
              Really, though, there should be an ee122 and cs122, with some
              common ground between the two.  ee122 should talk about the
              the hardware implications of a network protocol and how that
              affects protocol stack design and cs122, the design of a
              protocol stack and use in applications.  But as ee122 talks
              about both aspects, yes, students should be prepared to
              implement a real network protocol.  And for the original
              question, TCP Illustrated.  RIP WR Stevens.
              \_ NO!.  I will explain:  if the Networking class was a CS
                 class, I could not have taken it last semester.  Same with
                 _EE_ 150.  CS Classes are restricted, thus ensuring
                 high wages for those who can graduate with the major.
                 (not necessarily high clue.) - paolo
                 \_ paolo, that is a selfish attitude.  just because you
                    might not have been able to get into the class doesnt
                    mean that it should be taught in an ineffective manner.
                    If separating ee122 into hw and sw classes would teach
                    the material better then so be it.
                    \_ Dreamer.  It's all about self.  School has nothing to
                       do with The Right Thing or they would make sure they
                       didn't have to restrict classes in the first place.
                       Check out the forest, not the trees.
                       \_ right, and so you can have upper div cs classes
                          with 400 students in them.  great idea paolo.