Berkeley CSUA MOTD:Entry 13127
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2025/05/28 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
5/28    

2004/4/10-12 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:13127 Activity:high
4/10    Good balanced article on Economist.  US still has a window of
        opportunity to make things work in Iraq.
        http://www.economist.com/opinion/displayStory.cfm?story_id=2572254
        "It was one of the worst weeks so far. But it would still be
        wrong to write Iraq off"
        \_ I'd like to point out for the umpteenth time that NOBODY-- not
           even the Berkeley liberals-- wants the US to "write Iraq off".
           We are opposed to the flimsy justification for this war, and the
           continued mishandling of it.
           \_ how do you figure it should be handled at this point?  please
              don't say "bring in the UN!".  they were already there and Kofi
              pulled them out after a single bombing after their local
              directors ignored their own security people's advice.
              \_ Turn the country over to the UN or some other multinational
                 co-alition, maybe the Arab League.
                 \_ Duh, where have you been?  I just told you the UN turned
                    tail at the first sign of trouble.  Do you read?  Watch the
                    news?  Anything?  Or do you just make this shit up as you
                    go?  The Arab League?  Ah, yes, genius plan!  We're there
                    right now trying to create a democracy of some sort and you
                    want to turn it over to the most oppressive dictators in
                    the modern world.  Stick with html and java.
           \_ You haven't been walking around campuses recently, or gone to
              Berkeley-style bookstores of a certain variety, I take it?
              And not seen those 'BRING OUR TROOPS HOME NOW!' posters?
              This is in LA, btw, not Berkeley.  Berkeley is likely a lot
              worse.  I could have sworn I saw the same guys with the
              'END IRAQ SANCTIONS NOW!' posters just a year ago. -- ilyas
              \_ I live in a town where democrats outnumber republicans
                 13 to 1, with several universities within a couple miles.
                 all my freinds are democrats or greens or way out leftists
                 of some other type, and no one i know thinks we should just
                 pull out, and i have seen no signs to that effect.  perhaps
                 LA is just full of stupid ass tools?  why the fuck else
                 would they have decided to live in LA?
                 \_ Look, dude, I am happy that your far out leftist friends
                    are more reasonable, but your "NOBODY" claim is simply
                    false, I would say to the tune of 5% of the population
                    (at least).  In fact, next time I am at UCLA, I am
                    going to take a little informal poll, and report back.
                      -- ilyas
                    p.s. One of them is Governor Stupid Ass Tool to you.
                    \_ 5% of the population believes that the govenment
                       is controlled by space aliens, too.
                       \_ We're working hard to convince the rest of you before
                          They take over everything and we all perish into the
                          food vats or as hosts for their symbiotes!
                    false.  -- ilyas
                 \_ I've seen them in Berkeley, and wasn't that half of
                    Kucinichi's (sp?) platform?
                    \_ poor bastard... how does he expect anyone to vote for
                       him when they can't even spell his name.  if he was
                       smith or jones or jackson he'd be ok.
                       \_ Seriously.  That's probably a factor.  I mean,
                    Kucinichi's (sp?) platform?
                          Kelly vs Bush?
        \_ Actually, if and when the window of opportunity above closes,
           it's time to get out.  not getting out would just be prolonging
           the pain.
           \_ Agreed. It's not foolish or cowardly to realize that it's
              possible for us to screw this situation up past the point
              where our presence is in any way helpful.  That point may
              not be now, but we need to consider it as a possibility.
              \_ It's always helpful to someone. The point so far has been
                 that on balance, it was never helpful to America to do this.
                 Nothing about the current situation is really much different
                 than many imagined.
                 \_ Not to take sides in this debate, or anything, but I
                    really don't think it is possible to evaluate the effects
                    of sweeping foreign policy changes after so little time
                    has passed.  While it is true that the outcome in Iraq
                    is important, the fact that America now has a much more
                    aggressive doctrine of preemption (for example) will also
                    have effects.  In twenty years it will be obvious whether
                    the Bush Doctrine was a bad idea.  Calling it a failure
                    now falls under the heading of "I hate Bush" criticism.
                    To the poster below: whatever else may be true, pulling
                    out this very instant is certainly stupid, considering
                    how much it will save, and how much it will lose.  There
                    will be no pullout certainly until November for obvious
                    reasons, and probably not for a few years.  I think
                    the final toll will be a few thousand american lives, and
                    a whole lotta deficit.  -- ilyas
                    \_ What is our agressive policy supposedly trying to
                       preempt? Disagreement with the United States? Because
                       it sure as hell has nothing to do with terrorism.
                       \_ What our aggressive policy is trying to prevent is
                          state-sponsored terrorism.  Whether Iraq actually
                          sponsored terrorism is not even relevant.  What is
                          relevant was the reason why we are in Iraq.  Now
                          suddenly, the world realizes America has a really
                          itchy trigger finger for stuff like that, and will
                          think twice about it.  Syria, for instance, is scared
                          shitless, they were doing nothing but conceding as of
                          late.  In fact, domestic dissent on the Iraq war is
                          a natural sideeffect of democracy, but it weakens the
                          effect of the policy insofar as it makes America less
                          likely to engage in future wars of this type.  In
                          case of Iraq, there was also a gamble to place a seed
                          of democracy in the middle east, using the common
                          observation that democracy is virulent, and
                          prosperity follows democracy.  It was a gamble because
                          creating democracy from scratch is difficult, all
                          democratic european states went through a long period
                          of bloodshed before democracy was established for
                          good.  -- ilyas
                          \_ "established for good".  Really, that should be
                             "established for the moment".  Democracy is
                             fragile and must be tended, not taken for granted
                             as the western Europeans and so many Americans do.
                             As far as the Bush Gamble goes, only time will
                             tell.  Historians will look back and children will
                             either be taught that he was the most brilliant
                             foreign policy President in generations or the
                             worst.  It is too soon to tell now.
                          \_ "Now suddenly, the world [...] will think twice
                              about it." Or they won't. It's equally possible
                              that countries will realize that the only to
                              protect themselves from aggression is to develop
                              their own WMD. I don't understand why above you
                              say that we need 20 years to evaluate the
                              success of the Bush Doctrine, and then you go
                              and claim that the Bush Doctrine has been
                              successful.
                              \_ I don't claim that it is successful.  I was
                                 merely giving possible reasons for the Bush
                    the Bush Doctrine was a bad idea.  Calling it a failure
                    now falls under the heading of "I hate Bush" criticism.
                    Whatever else may be true, pulling out this very instant
                    is certainly stupid.  - ilyas
                    To the poster below: whatever else may be true, pulling
           \_ The right people at the top of what to accomplish what who wants?
                          a natural sideeffect of democracy, but it weakens the
                          effect of the policy insofar as it makes America less
                          likely to engage in future wars of this type. -- ilyas
                                 Doctrine.  Whether they are good reasons or
                                 not remains to be seen.  -- ilyas
                             \_ Developing WMD as a defense against the US at
                                this point in history would be pure suicide.
                                Only the most insane of leaders would think
                                like this.  Witness North Korea for an example
                                of insanity.  Without a dramatic shift in
                                power due to leapfrogging non-US technology or
                                the complete economic collapse of the US, the
                                currently non-WMD would only do as you suggest
                                if they were completely irrational.  It's a
                                losing policy for any nation as the world
                                stands now.  As far as the BD goes, no one here
                                has claimed success.  Where do you get this
                                stuff from?  Do you not read?  Do you knee
                                jerk into anything that doesn't bash Bush must
                                be pro-Bush?  We're having a nice little chat
                                here, please don't fuck it up with blind
                                partisanship.
        \_ It's not stupid to support a pullout at this point.  The
           Washington Post has at least one very long article on the Falluja
              This is in LA, btw, not Berkeley.  I shudder when I think about
              Berkeley...  -- ilyas
                    Kucinichi's (sp?) platform?
           it's time to get out.  not getting out would just be prolonging
           the pain.
                    out this very instant is certainly stupid, considering
                    how much it will save, and how much it will lose. -- ilyas
        \_ It's not stupid to support a pullout at this point.  The
           Washington Post has at least one very long article on the Falluja
           problem.  I just get the impression that we're shitting ourselves
           into a deeper and deeper hole; we don't have the right people
           at the top to accomplish what they want.
           war with each other for Europe's benefit.  The lines are entirely
           artificial and detrimental to the cause of peace and anyone's
           security.  If anyone had the balls to just admit the Europeans
           fucked most of the rest of the world and just redraw the lines a
           whole lot of ugliness would simply evaporate over night.
           \_ Good idea, all we have to do is also invade Iran, Syria, and
              Turkey so we can erase all current lines and redivide!
              (Although, I agree with out in a perfect world sense.)
           problem.  I just get the impression that we're shitting ourselves
           into a deeper and deeper hole; we don't have the right people
           at the top to accomplish what they want.
           \_ The right people at the top of what to accomplish what who wants?
        \_ Does anyone remember how many troops we *still* have in the Kosovo
           region?  They were supposed to be out after *one year* from the
           time they first entered the area.  All these people all over the
           place hate each other so much.  Most of these situations were
           created by European colonialism.  The Europeans *intentionally*
           divided tribes and put halves of traditional enemy tribes together
           for the express purpose of making sure these places were always at
           war with each other for Europe's benefit.  The lines are entirely
           artificial and detrimental to the cause of peace and anyone's
           security.  If anyone had the balls to just admit the Europeans
           fucked most of the rest of the world and just redraw the lines a
           whole lot of ugliness would simply evaporate over night.
           \_ Good idea, all we have to do is also invade Iran, Syria, and
              Turkey so we can erase all current lines and redivide!
              (Although, I agree with out in a perfect world sense.)
              \_ No invasion would be necesssary in most cases.  A lot of the
                 current wars going on are because the original tribes are
                 trying to reform across borders.  The Tutsi/Hutu thing was a
                 good example of that.  One tribe managed to take control of
                 the government and used it to attempt to genocide the other
                 from within their borders.  After 500,000 to 800,000 dead, it
                 sure looks like a better plan to bring everyone to the table
                 to redraw borders peacefully rather than by the gun or the
                 machete.
2025/05/28 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
5/28    

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