4/9     I am switching to a maildir format with my mail server so I can
        implement virtual domains with courier imap.  What should I
        recommend to users who are used to using pine.  I don't want to
        have to patch pine for maildir.  We,^H^H^H Some of these users have
        been using pine since their teens and are now well into their 30s
        and the transition many not be easy so i want to avoid telling them
        "learn mh".  Anything out there pine-like that supports maildir that
        I can install for us^H^H them to use?
        \_hmm, if they connect with pine to 127.0.0.1:imap I needn't worry
          about plain-text password passing right?
          \_ pine + imap kinda sucks. I moved our mail system over to qmail+
             maildir, but forward my mail over to another machine so that
             i can still use good ol' pine. - ex-mh user
             \_ ex-mh user?  there are no ex-mh users.  and they sure as hell
                wouldn't go to pine.  you mean you tried mh one day and gave
                up because you couldn't read a man page so you switched to
                the most broken mailer available.
             \_ Belive pine supports SSL/TLS too. Though, my personal
                suggestion would be to get rid of pine since it's author
                refuses to support this useful mail box format. He seems
                to have a personal vendetta against maildir and djb.
                \_ just implement and fork it.  that's what OS is about!  the
                   original author owes you nothing.  scratch that itch!
        \_ make virtual domains use maildir, keep local mail in mbox.
           This is the way I have it setup. shell users use pine,
           remote folks use maildir/courier/imap/ssl
            \_ ok this sounds like a good idea, but how do i tell procmail(?)
               to deliver the mail differently to virtual domains?  Also,
               this means, i presume, that the shell users can't use imap
               even if they want to (which is ok, since I don't let them now
               anyway as my imap/pop is unencrypted).
               \_ You can't tell procmail to deliver mail differently to
                  virtual domains because procmail has no idea what a domain
                  is.  It is a *local* delivery agent.  There are hackish ways
                  to accomplish this, but you don't want to go there. -dans
        \_ A few useful things you should know:
           * cyrus >> courier >> uw imap
             I've set up and used all three.  Cyrus is a royal fucking pain
             in the ass to set up, but, once working, is a thing of beauty.
             Cyrus cannot be used with procmail (it's architectural, you can
             read the docs if you care).  Courier is solid, but it runs as
             root and that always bugged me.  Plus, it's performance on
             ludicrously sized mail folders (> 1.5G) was unacceptable (yes, I
             care, and if you're 30 and using pine, so do you).  UW IMAP is,
             like most ``production'' software that comes out of UW a steaming
             pile of shit which lacks features and includes bugs they refuse
             to fix for `political reasons.'
           * Mutt can be made to act like pine, just change the keybindings.
             It has better IMAP support to (which is pretty absurd when you
             realize that UW IMAP is supposed to be the reference
             implementation).  This is probably an hour of work, and somebody
             has probably already written the mutt-like-pine .muttrc if you're
             feeling lazy.
           * Why aren't you using SSL?  It is trivial to set up in both
             Courier and Cyrus, and not completely gross in UW.  You realize
             it takes about five minutes and costs nothing to roll your own
             CA, and create a cert for your imap server(s)?  Yes, self-signed
             certs are a pain with some client software, but since your
             concern is the dour-naysayer big fat sysadmin types, they'll
             figure it out.
             \_ we're not fat.  we don't have time to eat.  we spend our
                waking (and sleeping) hours cleaning up other people's messes
                and implementing other people's fucked up plans and then
                fixing them after the obvious happens.
                \_ You're well into your 30s and still using pine.  This is
                   the behavior of someone who likes putting out fires, not
                   someone who thinks strategically and applies his efforts to
                   minimize fires which buys more time in the long run.
                   \_ I'm well into my 30s and using mh.  pine doesn't even
                      exist on my systems.  -- !fat, !time, !stupid, sysadmin
                      \_ And you still feel the need to seek approval from
                         anonymous motd posters.  How's that working for you?
                         \_ That's one interpretation.  Wrong, but if you want
                            to think that, whatever.  You feel the need to
                            insult and attack anonymous motd posters.  How's
                            *that* working for *you*?  See?  It goes both ways
                            yet still means nothing.
           * The UW mailtool program (included with UW IMAP, I think) is your
             friend.  Sadly, there still exists no swiss army knife for
             converting between mailbox formats, but the UW mailtool is fairly
             good, and it speaks IMAP so you can convert mbox spools to
             maildir by having it talk to your maildir format IMAP server.
             Oh, yeah, if all your mail start being reported as the wrong date
             (i.e. the day you converted it), that's due to the maildir
             format, and how Courier implements it.  Notably, Cyrus, which
             uses its own maildir-like format (more or less non-standard
             maildir plus index file) does not suffer from this problem.
           * Bug me if you have any interest in running Cyrus, I have notes I
             took in order to write a how-to at some point in the future.
           - dans