Berkeley CSUA MOTD:Entry 12991
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2004/4/2-3 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/Taiwan] UID:12991 Activity:high
4/2     Taiwan forming its own identity, apart from China -SJ Mercury News
        http://csua.org/u/6qg
        \_ how powerful is Taiwan's military?  Who'll come to Taiwan
           support if China invades Taiwan?
           \_ currently strong enough that China can't risk a failed invasion.
              the US will.
              \_ Is Taiwan recognized by the U.N.?  But how did this happen
                 when China is in the security council?
                 \_ Taiwan Relations Act
                 \_ Who cares what the UN recognizes?
                    \_ it's not the UN, it's every single darn country in
                       in the world including the USA, with the exception
                       of a few banana republics in the 3rd world part of
                       of the americas.
                       \_ which "it" are you refering to?  As long as the US,
                          Japan, and the EU are willing to trade with you, it
                          doesn't matter what anyone else thinks.
           \_ Didn't we cover all of this, yesterday?
        \_ I read somewhere that Taiwan's military is strong enough to
           defend itself for a few weeks. At any rate, if China seriously
           wants to take over Taiwan, it can do so easily. It's just a
           question of how they want to be perceived by others. The Chinese
           question of how they want to be perceived by others. The CHinese
           government feels insulted by the Taiwanese government so they
           gotta act tough. By they also won't attack Taiwan just because
           they don't want other people to perceive them as an aggressive
           nation.
           \_ Okay, mano a mano, China can most likely beat Taiwan.  I don't
              think anyone ever said the opposite.  They won't attack Taiwan
              because of U.S. power; China would like its own citizens to
              believe that it's not attacking Taiwan because of its great
              benevolence, which is not a real problem given its propaganda,
              censorship, and punishment machine.
              \_ I am fucking tired of this worn topic, so here is for you
                 to know.  1) China does NOT have the capability to invade
                 Taiwan in the near future.  2) China does HAVE the ability
                 make the life in Taiwan miserable for the foreseeable future
                 and beyond without actually using much of a military force.
                 \_ My post counters all the assertions of the previous post.
                    \_ No, it doesn't.  Your post makes unfounded assertions
                       no different than the one you respond to above.
                    Your post ... just seems to be angry.
        \_ Can some anti-Taiwan-independence person explain to me why wanting
           independence for its own sake is a bad thing?  Surely we have
           some people on the motd who don't want an independent Taiwan,
           otherwise this topic wouldn't keep coming up. -- ilyas
           \_ ha, that'll get a predictable response. haven't you heard all the
              "inseparable part of china" stuff? expect a civil war reference.
           |_ We were proud being Chinese till the damn Westerners
              humiliated us in the past 200 years. We're sick and tired of
              seeing your corrupt big white penises^H^H^H^H^H^H^H military
              power in our ass and we just want to show you that we're not
              the stupid, unsophisticated savages you portray us to be. At
              any rate, we want unification so that we will eventually kick
              you ass like we did centries ago.
              \_ You are showing us already...
              \_ unification won't help.  your entire culture is pointed in
                 the wrong direction to overtake the US or even the EU.  if
                 China had the same military as the US they'd have already
                 taken over the world so you can put away the America bashing.
                 \_ Nah, when China's mighty fleet sailed the seven seas under
                    admiral Cheng Ho, it didn't invade or occupy any country
                    even though it could easily do so.  Chinese is just not
                    interested in barbarian lands cause they smell bad.  Only
                    barbarians invade other people's lands.  Chinese prefer to
                    allow the barbarians to voluntarily join the Great Chinese
                    Civilization but only after they learned to civilize
                    \_ *hahahahhahahahhahahahahahaa*!!! too funny!  Let's go
                       share some boiled pigs knuckles and watch a few
                       hundred drug dealers get executed in public right after
                       we perform a few forced abortions on the outlying farms.
              \_ You are showing us already...
                 taken over the world so you can put away the America bashing.
                    themselves.
           \_ I already answered the question yesterday.  let's put it this
              way.  taiwan already has de facto independence under the
              current status quo.  why risk economic war or military war
              with prc for "official independence".  taiwan is already paying
              a huge economic price in terms of lack of direct links with
              prc and the military arms race with prc, and the various self-
              imposed limits place on its companies in terms of investing /
              setting up shop in the prc.  taiwan shares the same language as
              prc, and taiwan businessmen are thriving in prc.  the tv
              shows, movies, music, food all have huge overlap.  why risk
              all that just to gain the independence "name", which still
              will not be recognized by all the major countries in the
              world?  there is nothing necessarily wrong with taiwan
              independence per se, just like there is nothing necessarily
              wrong with say Hawaii independence, but in practice it is
              not worth it.  Now, most people from the prc would disagree
              with this view.  they believe taiwan is part of an
              unfinished civil war.  they also believe that taiwan is in
              many ways a pawn of US and Japan, even though they would admit
              that the flow of investment, technology, management expertise
              from taiwan to prc has benefitted the prc tremendously over the
              past 20 years.  add to that the long history of japan and western
              bullying of china (as the "big white penis"-guy above
              pointed out), and taiwan independence becomes unacceptable
              at any cost.  on the other hand, many prc people, or at
              least those in the us, recognized that taiwan is in most
              ways more advanced than the prc, and that war is the last
              resort, and status quo is the best, and prc should learn
              from taiwan in many ways.  why don't you tell us what is the
              criteria one should use in weighing the merits on whether
              a territory should become independent?
              \_ You are talking about the international games of chess.  China
                 doesn't want US influence to expand, etc.  Do you have a moral
                 argument against the independence of Taiwan (assuming a
                 majority of Taiwanese want it)?  I don't care about the rest,
                 because the rest is soulless bullshit. -- ilyas
                 \_ soulless bullshit?  you don't know what the fuck you
                    are talking about.  We are talking about real lives
                    in the real world, not one of your silly little
                    pseudo intellectual head games.
                    \_ Just like the founders of this nation.  They spilled
                       blood and most ended poor or dead from our war of indep.
                       from England.  Just some silly little head game over
                       tea taxes, eh?
                       \_ yea, they spilled blood just like the southerners
                          spilled blood during the civil war.  if you want
                          independence, blood will be spilled.  Also, unlike
                          US vs far away England, taiwan will still have to
                          live with a hostile neighbour 100 times its size.
                          \_ With real acknowledged independence they will be
                             out from the ever present shadow of the evil PRC.
                             The constant threat of invasion and the
                             uncertainty of their future status is a big long
                             term drag on the economy which hinders foreign
                             investment and growth.  If their status were
                             finally resolved the newly free Taiwan would make
                             the current Taiwan look like the 3rd world.
                    pseudo intellectual head games.
                       from England.  Just some silly little head game over
                       tea taxes, eh?
                       tea taxes, eh?
                       \_ yea, they spilled blood just like the southerners
                          spilled blood during the civil war.  if you want
                          independence, blood will be spilled.
                          Like I said, taiwan already has democracy and
                          freedom.  what additional benefits will independence
                          bring?  what are the risks and costs?
                    \_ Ok, let's try this again.  Say there is this
                       hypothetical island in the pacific, where the majority
                       of the population wants to secede from the big
                       continental Paterland.  The big continental Paterland
                       doesn't want this, for a variety of realpolitik reasons
                       which I understand.  Aside from those reasons, the moral
                       argument against the independence of the island is...?
                         -- ilyas
                       \_ I don't know about a "moral" argument, but how
                          about the fact that Taiwanese people suck just
                          as bad at government as Mainlanders?  In fact,
                          historically Chinese stink at government.
                          \_ What are you trying to say here, that the
                             Taiwanese (and Chinese) are incapable of governing
                             themselves well, and need strong foreign
                             leadership?  -- ilyas
                             \_ No, just that it doesn't really matter
                                if they're independent or not, things
                                are going to suck.  What they need isn't
                                foreigners, they need a truly great
                                   \_ Welcome to World History.  Enjoy your
                                      stay. -- ilyas
                                leader to emerge, the likes of which
                                they've seldom had in their thousands of
                                years of history.
                                      \_ I'm just asking for clarification.
                                years of history.
                                   Their world spanning empire collapses into
                                   anarchy until the next superman emerges a
                                   \_ These "great" leaders are mostly known
                                      for wars and conquests. I don't think I
                                      want one of them drafting me into his
                                      glorious army.
                                   few hundred years later?
                                \_ So you're saying the entire Chinese culture
                                   is simply broken and they need a superman to
                                   save their pathetic useless asses?  And what
                                   happens after this mythical superman dies?
                                   Their world spanning empire collapses into
                                   anarchy until the next superman emerges a
                                   few hundred years later?
                                   \_ Welcome to World History.  Enjoy your
                                      stay. -- ilyas
                                   \_ you didn't know the Chinese culture was
                                      broken?  people realized it back in the
                                      last century.
                                \_ If a truly great leader emerges, I want him
                                   here where I live.  Those are rare!
                                     -- ilyas
                        \_ let's say 49% of the population do not wish to
                           secede.  Also, say, the population of Paterland
                           have fought many wars and sacrificed many lives
                           in defense of the island (whose population was
                           originally happy to be part of Paterland since
                           they are from Paterland) against invaders who
                           after taking the island, also invaded other
                           parts of Paterland, exploiting the island for
                           supplies, etc. for its war effort, killing millions
                           of Paterland people.  Let's say big amounts of
                           wealth from Paterland has been used to help
                           develop the island over many years  ...  by the
                           way, if I live in wisconsin, does that mean I
                           have no stake in say florida, or do I have a
                           stake there too since it is also part of my
                           country?
                           \_ Only about 20% of Taiwan population came from
                              China during the 20th century.  Immigration
                              patterns don't prove very much.  At one point,
                              the vast majority of Americans were of British
                              descent.  That Paterland provided for
                              the island's security at one point is irrelevant.
                              That's like saying if a girl dates a guy, and he
                              gets a bloody nose protecting her, she has to
                              marry him and stay with him forever.  What if
                              she no longer likes him?
                              If you live in Wisconsin, it's frankly none of
                              your business if Florida wants to secede.
                                -- ilyas
                              \_ really?  so even though americans fought
                                 to protect hawaii from the japanese during
                                 ww2, it doesn't count for anything, and hawaii
                                 can just dump the US if it chose to do so?
                                 Also, say, as an american, I like the freedom
                                 and choice to be able to move around the
                                 country.  for example, say, I want to work in
                                 illinois, and retire in florida.  you are saying
                                 this freedom of mine can be taken away?  Also,
                                 I like to visit the national parks of this
                                 country, but some random territory can just
                                 declare these parks to off limits to all
                                 other americans besides the locals?  do you
                                 even know what it means to be a nation?
                                 \_ As far as I am concerned, nations are
                                    voluntary things.  If people can't leave
                                    it's a gulag, not a nation.  If Floridians
                                    decide they want to strike it on their own,
                                    and close their borders to tourists, that's
                                    their right.  You don't have a right to
                                    wander through other people's backyards,
                                    if they don't want you there. -- ilyas
                                    \_ so north taiwan can declare indepen-
                                       dence and become a separate nation
                                       from south taiwan, or maybe remain
                                       in status quo, or even rejoin china?
                                       \_ If they want, yes. -- ilyas
                                          \_ so if I declare my ranch to be
                                             a one person nation and then
                                             let russia place an icbm here,
                                             there is no problem right?
                                             \_ no, you can't.  you're not a
                                                large enough entity to survive
              since you'll be landlocked, have no access to seed, water,  _/
              fuel, fertiliser, trade partners, medical care or anything else
              without passing through US territory you exist at the whim of
              the US which makes your 'nation' no different than being a
              citizen-slob like the rest of us.  pay your taxes and shut up.
                                                   \_ As far as I am concerned
                                                      you have a right to
                                                      secede by default, and
                                                      the burden of proof is
                                                      on the other party (in
                                                      this case the US).  Of
                                                      course, per the link I
                                                      posted below, US will not
                                                      allow secession, since
                                                      democracies are destroyed
                                                      by secessions. -- ilyas
                                             there is no problem right?
                                                independently.  you can declare
                                                anything you want but even if
                                                the US let you secede you'd
                                                just starve to death.  since
                                                of the US you *are* a part of
                                       if you don't like it, you can always
                                       leave the country.  and no, nobody's
                                                the US (in effect) thus your
                                                secession is meaningless.  pay
                                                your taxes and stop wanking.
                                                you'd only survive at the will
                                                of the US you *are* a part of
                                                the US (in effect) thus your
                                                secession is meaningless.  pay
                                                your taxes and stop wanking.
                                                \_ why will I starve to death?
                                                   I can just grow food on
                                                   my plot of land and
                                                   live well.  hundreds of
                                                   millions of subsistence
                                                   farmers all over the world
                                                   do that.
                                    \_ no a nation is not a voluntary thing.
                                       it is a shared thing owned by all
                                             \_ I don't know.  I think we need
                                                a few hundred years and better
                                                tech for the kind of government
                                                I would be happy with.  Your
                                                argument can also read: "What
                                                makes you say US will be
                                                successful with so many hostile
                                                non-democracies stomping
                                                around?"  -- ilyas
                                                \_ The answer  to your question
                                                   is already answered by you.
                                                   The US federal government
                                                   forces everyone to work
                                                   together for the greater
                                                   good whether you want to or
                                                   not.  In a libertarian
                                                   system what is your method
                                                   of common defense?  Intern'l
                                                   trade?  Transport?  Border
                                                   protection?  It's here and
                                                   now without needing Star
                                                   Trek tech to make it work.
                                          \_ They don't necessarily rely on it.
                                             Usually they want to be part of
                                             a larger group so as to have more
                                             power and benefits. If they were
                                             too fragmented they'd also be
                                             vulnerable to aggressive non-
                                             democracies as you say. I think
                                             that if the South had successfully
                                             seceded, it would have altered
                                             world history but not necessarily
                                             anything so terrible. The key is
                                             the "states' rights" issue which
                                             e.g. in Europe will always be
                                             important. I believe USA founders
                                             intended a lot more state power
                                             and less federal. It's also pretty
                                             clear that Californians would be
                                             better served by being split into
                                             at least 2 states.
                                             \_ It depends on where you draw
                                                that line.  Some splittists
                                                want to draw that line north
                                                of the SF Bay Area.
                                       backyard is florida.  backyard is the
                                       citizens.  no it is not a gulag because

                                       small patch of lawn behind your house.
                                       if you don't like it, you can always
                                       leave the country, or work to change it
                                       for the better.  and no, nobody's
                                       backyard is florida.  backyard is the
                                       small patch of lawn behind your house.
                                       \_ Here is a good read on ethics of
                                          secession:
              \_ of course it's the US navy.  once the Korean War started,
                 the US 7th fleet is ready to defend taiwan, and prc indefi-
                 nitely postponed all plans for invading taiwan.  Lots
                 of Taiwanese communists then were ready to help the prc from
                 the inside if prc invaded.
                 \_ Why did the PRC not chase the KMT to Taiwan immediately?
                    Because they couldn't.  The USN came much later and now
                    it's too late.  Without fighting it, no one can say if
                    the PRC can take Taiwan or not without US helping Taiwan.
                    Even if the US backed out now, I don't see the PRC going
                    in for at least 10-15 more years.  They don't have the
                    air force, the navy, the troop transports, and most
                    importantly, the logistical capacity to launch a large
                    scale amphibious invasion.  DDay wasn't just luck.
              "inseparable part of china" stuff? expect a civil war reference.
                         -- ilyas
           you can't defend yerself for just to prove a point
           that's no longer a point.
           It's fun to watch people who follow too. -- ivy
                  http://web.inter.nl.net/users/Paul.Treanor/secession.html
                                          Interesting point: democracies rely
                                          on suppression of secession.  This
                                          is one of the reasons I dislike
                                          democracies (and why there is tension
                                          between libertarian ideas and
                                          democratic ideas).  There are some
                                          other goodies on that site worth
                                          reading. -- ilyas
                                          \_ uhm, what is your governmental
                                             preference if not democracy?  you
                                             think a purely libertarian form
                                             of government is viable in a world
                                             with so many hostile non-libert.
                                             governments stomping around?
                                             \_ I don't know.  I think we need
                                                a few hundred years and better
                                                tech for the kind of government
                                                I would be happy with.  Your
                                                argument can also read: "What
                                                makes you say US will be
                                                successful with so many hostile
                                                non-democracies stomping
                                                around?"  -- ilyas
        \_ It gotta be the funniest thing if you say Taiwan can defend itself.
           It's the dumbest thing to do to pick a fight
           you can't defend yerself for just to prove a point
           that's no longer a point.
           It's fun to watch people who follow too. -- ivy
           \_ This is historically and factually incorrect.  If Taiwan was
              unable to defend itself or more correctly if the PRC was capable
              of taking over Taiwan at any point in the last 50 years they
              would have.  What stopped them from following when the KMT losers
              fled the mainland and continuing their winning civil war on the
              island and being done with it?  It wasn't the US Navy....
              \_ of course it's the US navy.  once the Korean War started,
                 the US 7th fleet is ready to defend taiwan, and prc indefi-
                 nitely postponed all plans for invading taiwan.  Lots
                 of Taiwanese communists then were ready to help the prc from
                 the inside if prc invaded.
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web.inter.nl.net/users/Paul.Treanor/secession.html
The ethics of secession The ethics of secession Is secession wrong, and if not, who may legitimately secede? This is a brief review of the specific ethics of secession, especially in relation to democracy and nationalism. Do you live in a western society, and do you want to be treated as a crank? Then suggest establishing a new state with a new political system. And preferably, suggest it should be on an artificial island, and write the constitution yourself. On the other hand, if you suggest establishing a new nation state, for an existing but oppressed ethnic group, you will not be treated as a crank. But if you survive that phase, you might end your life as president of the new state - with airports, streets, and mountains named after you. This is the paradox of secession which deserves attention from political theory. Looking at history, national secessionist movements are relatively successful. Not all of them achieved their aim, but considering the magnitude of their demands, the vehemence of opposition, and the bloodshed they usually engender, they seem a successful type of political movement. Yet in the same historical perspective, non-national non-ethnic secessionist movements are a total flop. Now, if anyone can secede at any time, that means the end of the state, the government, on the usual definitions. And not just of tyrannies and gulags, but also of nice democratic governments. The explanation might be simply the fear of bloodshed and chaos - anarchy in the most negative sense. This does not explain why national secession has been relatively successful: it is possible to take an ethical position that all secession is wrong, but evidently very few people do. Distinctions are made, and conditions are set, but some secessions are accepted. So the ethics of secession here means both the claims made about secession, and the question of whether these claims are right or even consistent. A democratic regime assumes a demos - a unit of political decision-making which is constant between decisions. If every dissident minority secedes after every opposed decision, then there is no democratic regime. There would be no political regime at all - at least not for standard political theory. So democrats have concluded, like President Lincoln in the 1860s, that secession must be suppressed. Since modern democracies are nation states, secession is now treated as an issue of national unity, and national identity: Lincoln was one of the last politicians who had to address secession as a classic political issue. Today he would talk about culture and identity - like the revived southern secessionist movement in the United States. Democrats no longer advocate force to preserve the demos, because nationalists do it for them. The nationalists advocate force to preserve the territorial integrity of the nation, which coincidentally is also the demos, the political unit. In this way, the nationalists get the bad publicity, not the democrats. Nevertheless, those who advocate democracy are also logically advocating, that at some point secession be suppressed. And almost inevitably, that implies the use of force - military force. An entirely pacifist democracy might work for small homogenous groups, but not for large states with hundreds of millions of inhabitants. A large democratic state, with no armed forces, would be overwhelmed by secession. One democratic theorist who represents this darker side of democracy is Lea Brilmayer. Her essay on secession and self-determination is a charter for anti-secessionist force and therefore inevitably for anti-secessionist atrocities. Separatists cannot base their arguments on a right to opt out because no such right exists in democratic theory. Government by the consent of the governed does not necessarily encompass a right to opt out. It only requires that within the existing political unit a right to participate through electoral processes be available. Lea Brilmayer 1991 Secession and self-determination: a territorial interpretation. Her ethic of democracy is clear: we let you participate in the demos, therefore we are entitled to keep you in it. But it is equally possible to reverse the approach, and ask if any political regime ever has a right to prevent secession. More specifically, if there is a universal right to prevent the formation of a new state by secession. Political philosophy generally ignores this issue - which can also be formulated as a question about how many states there should be. At present there are 180 to 200 states, depending on exact definitions. And for liberal-democratic political philosophy, that seems to be enough. Lea Brilmayer puts it like this: When a group seeks to secede, it is claiming a right to a particular piece of land, and one must necessarily inquire into why it is entitled to that particular piece of land, as opposed to some other piece of land - or no land at all. Lea Brilmayer 1991 Secession and self-determination: a territorial interpretation. This is not an accurate picture of the present geopolitical reality. A non-ethnic secessionist group might not claim any particular piece of land, but just some land, somewhere. However, it will belong to some state: there are no more undiscovered, uninhabited islands, at least not of any habitable size. Since about 1950, all land area is claimed by some nation state, often by several nation states. Artificial islands are disproportionately prominent in neo-secessionist proposals, but no large-scale proposals of this type were ever implemented. Secession is the only real method of new state formation, and a prohibition of secession is equivalent to a veto on new states. As a general principle every state-forming secession is legitimate, unless there are specific reasons to reject it. These could be ethical objections to the state itself, or to the means of state formation, especially population transfers. Libertarianism itself is a primarily Anglo-American political ideology: it derives from the English tradition of anti-state protective liberalism. Although the idea seems to be going out of fashion, US libertarians especially have proposed new states on artificial islands. Sometimes these are misleadingly called new nations, although there is no pre-existing national community. These should not be confused with projects for new structures in sea, as a form of property development. In the Netherlands there are several plans for new islands and peninsulas along the coast, replacing the traditional form of reclamation by enclosure dike. Such projects do not have the intention of creating a new state: they fall under the sovereign territory of an existing state. They may be explicitly designed to fall within a particular sovereignty, as in Monaco and Macau. Both of these semi-sovereign territories have run out of land for development: that is the only reason for expensive construction in sea. These property developments are real construction projects, with real investors, and using available technology. In the case of ocean islands - necessary to evade the 200-mile economic zones of existing states - the construction technology is not yet developed. Although the projects are justified with general libertarian arguments of individual sovereignty and limited government, one factor stands out. Libertarian new state proposals are primarily intended for tax avoidance. There is a thin line between tax avoidance and tax evasion: the proposals evoke the semi-criminal image of existing tax havens. Some are no more than investor scams: the financial logic is absent. Why build a floating Liechtenstein, when there is a non-floating version available already? And if international fiscal pressure is eroding the traditional sovereign tax havens, why would it stop at an artificial island? The libertarian proposals have been unable to present any other economic logic for new island states. For most industrial or service activities, they would far more expensive than a land location. Leaving aside the tax-avoidance aspect, the free market will not lead to the construction of such projects. And of course libertarians would be horrified by the ...