4/1 what kind of military strategy would you do in fallujah?
the best one i heard is to set up a camp w/ food and beds
outside the city, cordon the city and empty it out inspecting
each person for weapons, removing weapons from them and searching
the homes for explosives and weapons. Then moving people back in.
\_ TO KRUSH ZEIR ENEMIES, TO SEE ZEM DRIVEN BEFORE YOO, UND TO HEAR
\_ I'm waiting for a Pentagon spokesperson to slip up and call them
Sadamites.
\_ http://www.jengajam.com/r/Saddam-Hey-Ya
ZE LAMENTATION OF ZEIR VOMEN. -Johnan the Barbarian
\_ Iron boot. The place was showered with goodies stolen from the
rest of Iraq for Saddam's entire multi decade tenure. Of course
they're pissed off that they don't get to live well at the expense
of the rest of the country now. They'll never happily go along
with anything. The uprising needs to be crushed utterly and
convincingly. Some only understand and respect force and violence.
It is unfortunate but it is the way it is sometimes. This is one
of those times.
\_ 1 saddaam + 1 saddaam = 2 saddaams
\_ You'd have to cordon off the city before you start building the
camp or else people would get wise and move their weapons. Then
during construction you'd have to make sure that food/water and
\_ I'm a liberal too and I'm not really mad at them. How dare they
kill us nice invaders. Don't they understand we're here to help
them? Maybe to save the village we have to destroy it.
miscelaneous goods can exit/enter the city, wiout weapons being
smuggled out. Then once you clear people, you'd have to make sure
they didn't loot their neighbors houses while they are in the camp.
Then when you're all done you have to make sure people don't just
smuggle in more weapons.
\_ I'm a self-described liberal, and even I would have difficulty
resisting the urge to firebomb Fallujah into rubble right now.
\_ I'm a liberal too and I'm not really mad at them. How dare they
kill us nice invaders. Don't they understand we're here to help
them? Maybe to save the village we have to destroy it.
\_ There's a huge difference between killing someone and shooting
up their vehicle, setting fire to it, fragging the still
living people to the street where you stomp them to death
under foot, hack their bodies to pieces and drag what's left
\_ These "contractors" ride in heavily armed caravans
(for obvious reasons).
through the streets and hang it from a bridge with a big
stupid grin on your face for the cameras.
\_ yea it's much better to drop anti-personnel bombs with
thousands of bomblets from high up in the sky. Much
\_ Just until Americans leave, like in Somalia
\_ Hehe. Why do you hate America?
more civilized.
\_ sorry, not taking the bait or feeding the trolls tonight
\_ Not only were they civilians, they were delivering FOOD TO THE
HUNGRY. They're animals (those Iraqis who did this) and
should be hunted down like animals.
\_ If foreigners invaded America, I would
try to kill them, and I wouldn't be too
\_ Do you feel the same way about how the Italians
treated Mussolini?
concerned if they were officially civilians
or not.
\_ would you attack the French for helping
kick out the British for independence?
\_ I see your point, but that is not
analogous to the situation in Fallujah.
Maybe in the Kurd dominated or even
Sunni dominated regions, but not there.
\_ Hehe, even if their express purpose was
ousting Dubya? You talk about killing, but
a much more civilized way of killing.
I don't think you would have the guts to do
it if it came down to it. -- ilyas
\_ yea, it's much easier to kill when
you are high up in the air, dropping
those smart bombs with lots of
bomblets. the enemy die the same
kind of horrible death, but it is
much more civilized.
\_ The people they killed were just civilians.
\_ I know that. But if you were a Sunni they'd sure look a
lot like invaders to you.
\_ 70% of the Iraqis would rather have the US troops
instead of the UN troops.
\_ Where do you get this figure?
carrying weapons. They are likely to be working closly
\_ Now, now.. There is no right and wrong, only different
cultures.
\_ Zogby polling. --!that person above but saw it
\_ In other news, 38% of all statistics are made up on
\_ try harder
the spot.
\_ this would be funny if uhm well nevermind....
\_ See, this is typical liberal smugness. Iraqis are no
more dumb than you or I (well definitely not as dumb
as you). Saying civilians look like invaders to them
is like saying _their_ civilians look like terrorists
to us, and we should just hang up a few as an example
to others. Idiot.
\_ Perhaps you read me too literaly. I wasn't
\_ (1) stop sending in unarmored vehicles without escort
(put up roadblocks to prevent someone from accidentally
doing this)
(2) do the standard sweep they've always been doing, but more
suggesting they were incapable of telling the
difference between a soldier and a civilian. I was
merely saying that from their point of view, both
are equally valid targets.
\_ Well, if they feel that way, I suppose it's
equally valid for us to see them all as valid
targets too. Anyone with half a brain will see
that you can't provoke Americans forever.
\_ Just until Americans leave, like in Somalia
\_ Hehe. Why do you hate America?
\_ You're a piece of shit.
\_ They are all ex-Navy Seals and ex-Rangers. They are
carrying weapons. They are likely to be working closely
with the US military. (indentation corrected)
\_ No, they're actually there as security for business
people from Europe and local politicians.
\_ There are acts of resistance I am willing to accept. The
immolation, dismemberment, and hanging of anyone, armed
combatant or civilian, is inhuman and deserves no
excusing. This was barbarism, pure and simple. -SDL
\_ Do you feel the same way about how the Italians
treated Mussolini?
\_ Of course. It was barbaric. -!SDL
\_ No, they're aren't stupid, they knew. They thought
"Hey, here are some white guys who can't fight back
Boo-yah!" That's just plain old murder.
\_ From their point of view, the US government it the
embodiment of evil. If they were on the motd, they
\_ send in the Terminators
would probably say it's in line with French
partisans killing members of the Vichy Government.
\_ Which would still be wrong when you stomp them
to death, set them afire and hang them from a
bridge. Is there any case of that in France?
\_ Cough. These weren't just civilians. These were
armed security contractors, US mercenaries.
\_ SO, in other words, they were working for
Iraqis... That makes it SO much more
reasonable to kill them.
\_ Hmmm... US Mercenary = Working for the US.
\_ No, they worked for local politicians and
EU businessmen as security.
\_ useless, weapons will flow right back in. best way is to
use fense and towers to divide the city into small sections.
costly though. the unfortunate truth is that, yes, saddam is
a brutal dictator, but the 5m Sunnis like him, and so we have
a 5m hostile population supporting guerilla activities. our
invasion is detrimental to them.
\_ No this is NOT LIKE VIETNAM.
\_ of course it isn't, but still we should do it right
and do it cleanly, the more weapons we destroy the less
will be available.
\_ actually it is like vietnam. even the casualty rate is
comparable to vietnam. Note that the hostile population
under occupation (and in the north) in vietnam is like 10
times the 5m sunnis, and vietnam war lasted about 7 years.
600*10*7 gives 42000.
\_ hahaa, go back to the books cuz you don't know squat
about vietnam, rates are nowhere near
\_ try harder
\_ I did the math. The rates are 1/10th Vietnam rates.
\_ I am more interested in how US military fares
against guerilla warfare compared to during
vietnam times. I have to conclude it's not
much better given that the hostile population
of 5m Sunnis is 1/10th the number of the
50m hostile vietnamese and the number of
casualties per year is also about 1/10th.
This demonstrates the limitation of US power
as an occupational force. In conventional
warfare it now reigns supreme, but not in
guerilla warfare.
\_ The number of local people has nothing to do
with anything. Your analogy is false. Anyway,
the total number of American deaths so far is
trivial (except to the dead and their families
of course, but militarily meaningless). The US,
Brits, and Canadians lost over 5000 men at DDay
on just the first day. That was considered a
great success and much lower first *day* losses
than expected. Militarily, we're not only not
losing but completely kicked and continue to
kick ass in Iraq. The resistence is 99.9999%
ineffective. The problems are diplomatic and
due to domestic weakness and lack of will on the
part of a minority segment of the American
population.
\_ False. The size of the hostile population
means everything. That's why we cannot
allow the shiites to turn hostile too.
otherwise we are screwed. Your D-Day
analogy is the one that's ludicrous.
\_ Nuke 'em.
\_ i think the new war technics will likely involve crowd control
and more police like tactics. Moving innocent civilians cleanly
and safely to root out the bad guys is where new technology
and new strategy will come in.
\_ None of these will work. They either require huge amounts of
manpower that the US can't/won't provide or they greatly subvert
positive gains the US has made. And if you start popping off
civilians, you're just making things worse.
\_ (1) stop sending in unarmored vehicles without escort
(put up roadblocks to prevent someone from accidentally
doing this)
(2) do the standard sweep they've always been doing, but more |
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