Berkeley CSUA MOTD:Entry 12649
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2025/05/28 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
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2004/3/12-14 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China, Politics/Foreign/Asia/Taiwan] UID:12649 Activity:nil
3/12    So Taiwan seems to be a pretty developed country, why is it still
        considered a third world country?
        \_ state your source.
        \_ because they are not yet white and the quota for nonwhite is 1.
           \_ idiot, why do you even bother wasting bits with your racist
              hateful shit?
           \_ did you really go to cal?
        \_ because they don't have the political, economic, military, or
           diplomatic power to be considered a major power.
           \_ don't forget the congressional brawls.
              \_ hey, we've got them too now! - random Korean guy
        \_ Taiwan is *NOT* a developed region,  not even close.  For one thing
           Taiwan is lack of rule of law.  This is a major issue which most
           American has overlooked because it is not as cachy as "democracy"
           and "human right" etc et.  Mind you that rule of law is the
           fundamental building block of democratic government, and a democracy
           without rule of law is actually in many ways more chaotic than
           dictatorial form of government.  Things you have taken for granted,
           such as (relatively) independent judicial branch does not exist
           here.  Law enforcement is selective, tend to be charged with either
           political motive or influenced by bribe.

           Infrasture wise, when you step out of Taipei, you will find that
           Taiwan is still pretty damn underdeveloped.

           Even in Taipei City... give you an example, the waste water
           treatment plant just went online recently.  Can you imagine a city
           of 1.7 million live on local septic tanks?

           Lastly, Taiwan is not a country.  The Constitution of Republic
           of China state that Taiwan is part of China and the constitution
           is designed for entire China in mind.  Read them if you can actually
           read Chinese.
           \_ I like that argument for the annexation of Taiwan.  "Our
              Constitution says so!"  If only the Germans had amended
              their Constitution to say Austria, Poland, the Low Lands,
              France, etc. were a part of the Reich, there wouldn't have been
              a problem!  And before you bring this up, most of those
              territories (along with Spain) were in fact Hapsburg possessions,
              and part of the Holy Roman Empire at one point or another.
                -- ilyas
              \_ Haha, there may be problems in his argument, but not the one
                 you are dwelling on.  He was referrring the consistituion of
                 ROC (i.e. taiwan), which claims it to be part of China.  You
                 made fun of yourself, again.
                 \_ Ok.  Show me where:
                    http://www.taiwandocuments.org/constitution01.htm
                      -- ilyas
                   \_ I don't have to.  I don't care about taiwan or china or
                      roman empire.  I just saw you misread another post in
                      such an obvious way and went ahead pouring your vast
                      "intelligence."  You should ask the guy to whom you
                      original replied to show that and thank me for helping
                      with your reading comprehension.
                      \_ I don't know.  Are you sure you schooled me?
                         Taiwanese constitution doesn't say (or at least
                         I couldn't find anything about this) "Taiwan" is a
                         part of "China".  It was merely a non-communist
                         constitution which was meant to apply to all of
                         china once the nationalists won.  They never did,
                         and it applies to a small island instead.  If you
                         really want your 10 motd points, you can have them,
                         however. -- ilyas
                         \_ The constitution specifically said that no one
                            allowed to alter the soverign territory of
                            the Republic of China, and at the time, the
                            constitution covers entire chinese mainland.
                            and this claus of contitution still exists.
                                - someone who actually can read chinese
                                  and read the damn constitution, unlike ilyas
                         \_ It has nothing to do with what any constitution
                            says, but has everything to do with the carrier
                            we want to buy from ebay for you.  I donate the
                            10 points toward its purchase.
                            \_ Tell you what.  How about I spare you the
                               trouble of replying to me in the future.  I am
                               nothing but a stuck-up, stupid, rabidly
                               libertarian, selfish, blind, easily offended,
                               unattractive, smelly, kooky, ridiculous,
                               no life loser with the attention span and
                               reading comprehension abilities of a 10
                               year old.  I should fuck off and die like my
                               libertarian ilk, and keep my rabid
                               politico-sexual fantasies to myself.  Can we
                               just agree on that?  I default on all the motd
                               points.  Any future argument between us you win
                               automatically.  I accept any remotely clever
                               jokes you make at my expense in advance.  I
                               surrender unconditionally.  -- ilyas
                               \_ You're not allowed to.  Sorry, but you lose
                                  on losing, too.  That's impressive!
           \_ Yes, outside of the big cities, there are people living
              at shocking levels of poverty.  It's really quite
              frightening, and the gov. seems uninterested in changing
              anything.
              \_ When I swang by the mainland China, I was shocked by the
                 difference in standard of living between the city and
                 the country side (and I didn't even wonder off to any
                 really poor country side neither).   For a moment, I thought
                 Taiwan is much better in this regard.  Then, I realize
                 that I *RARELY* step outside the Taipei city.
                 \_ just because you rarely see outside of taipei doesn't mean
                    taiwan is full of countrysides with poor rural bumpkins.
                    taiwan is much better in this regard.
                    \_ I don't dispute that.  However, Taiwan is much smaller
                       and at least in my view should of done a better job
                       closing the gap between the country side and the city
                       than what is on the table right now.
           \_ I am not very familiar with Taiwan's government system,
              but are you sure about your claim that Taiwan does not
              have an independent judiciary branch?  Can you back it
              up?  I read a book or two by Li3 Ao2, and even under
              KMT rule (under CCG, I presume?), which he sharply criticized,
              he was able to win case after case in the courts.  That
              would be unthinkable in say, commie China.
              \_ I am sure, because I live in TW right now and I have heard
                 enough share of horror stories, to a point that I had to
                 constantly remind myself that this is not the way things
                 suppose to work.  The supreme court, for example, is extremely
                 weak and they are subject to president's political pressue.
                 This is one of the reason why nobody ever bother to ask the
                 supreme court to interpret the legality of laws and the
                 referendum conducted solely by the president right now.
                 The prosecutor general is essentially a servant of the
                 president.  Those who doesn't cooperate, including judges
                 and people on the prosecution team, gets rotated out of the
                 trial while the trial is in progress.
        \_ When I was in Singapore, I remember once where some international
           organization reclassified Singapore as a developed nation.
           The local government controlled media started trumpeting the
           achievement all over the place.  Then PM Lee Kuan Yew spoke up
           and says Singapore is still a third world country.  Lee Kuan
           Yew is smart because one still gets some advantages (trade,
           loan, etc.) by being a third world country in name.  The
           government controlled media then did a full reverse course
           and started pumping out articles on why Singapore is not yet
           a developed nation.  It was kind of funny.
           \_ Funny in the way that government controlled media is funny.
                \_ pray tell us how else could it have been funny?
                   \_ exactly my point.
        \_ Guys, you shouldn't compare everything with US.  America is an
           exceptional country, one which is founded on a sound principle
           and evolve along a sound trajectory, has always had an unbiased
           judiciary and a functining democracy.  If you have to measure
           against the US, then no other country is developed.
           \_ blah blah america is bad, the worlds problems are all our fault
              and if it wasnt for america the world would be utopia, so lets
              just raise taxes, slash the military to ribbons and pay off the
              rest of the world to like us because their liking is us is so
              important as if international politics was a playground game
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Cache (8192 bytes)
www.taiwandocuments.org/constitution01.htm
The Constitution of the Republic of China Adopted by the National Constituent Assembly on 25 December 1946, promulgated by the National Government on 1 January 1947, and went into effect on 25 December 1947; Latest revision in April 2000 amended the Constitution with the inclusion of Eleven Additional Articles . SYSTEM OF LOCAL GOVERNMENT Section 1 The Province Section 2 The County Chapter XII. FUNDAMENTAL NATIONAL POLICIES Section 1 National Defense Section 2 Foreign Policy Section 3 The National Economy Section 4 Social Security Section 5 Education and Culture Section 6 The Frontier Regions Chapter XIV. ENFORCEMENT AND AMENDMENT OF THE CONSTITUTION ADDITIONAL ARTICLES OF THE CONSTITUTION OF THE REPUBLIC OF CHINA . The Constitution of the Republic of China Preamble The National Constituent Assembly of the Republic of China, by virtue of the mandate received from the whole body of citizens, in accordance with the teachings bequeathed by Dr. Chapter I General Provisions Article 1 The Republic of China, founded on the Three Principles of the People, shall be a democratic republic of the People, by the people, and for the people. Article 2 The sovereignty of the Republic of China shall reside in the whole body of citizens. Article 3 Persons with the nationality of the Republic of China shall be citizens of the Republic of China. Article 4 The territory of the Republic of China within its existing national boundaries shall not be altered except by a resolution of the National Assembly. Article 5 There shall be complete equality among the various ethnic groups in the Republic of China. Article 6 The national flag of the Republic of China shall show a red field with a blue sky and a white sun in the upper left corner. Chapter II Rights and Duties of the People Article 7 All citizens of the Republic of China, irrespective of sex, religion, ethnic origin, class, or party affiliation, shall be equal before the law. In no case except that of flagrante delicto, which shall be separately prescribed by law, shall any person be arrested or detained other than by a judicial or police organ in accordance with the procedure prescribed by law. No person shall be tried or punished other than by a law court in accordance with the procedure prescribed by law. Any arrest, detention, trial, or punishment not carried out in accordance with the procedure prescribed by law may be resisted. The court shall not reject such a petition and shall, within twenty-four hours, investigate the action taken by the organ concerned and deal with the matter in accordance with law. Article 9 Except those in active military service, no person shall be liable to court-martial. Article 10 The people shall have freedom of residence and of change of residence. Article 11 The people shall have freedom of speech, teaching, writing, and publication. Article 12 The people shall have freedom of privacy of correspondence. Article 14 The people shall have freedom of assembly and of association. Article 15 The right to live, the right to work, and the right to own property shall be guaranteed to the people. Article 16 The people shall have the right to present petitions, lodge complaints, and institute legal proceedings. Article 17 The people shall have the rights of election, recall, initiative, and referendum. Article 18 The people shall have the right to take public examinations and hold public offices. Article 19 The people shall have the duty to pay taxes in accordance with law. Article 20 The people shall have the duty to render military service in accordance with law. Article 21 The people shall have the right and the duty, to receive elementary education. Article 22 All other freedoms and rights of the people that are not detrimental to social order or public welfare shall be guaranteed under the Constitution. Article 23 All the freedoms and rights enumerated in the preceding articles shall not be abridged by law except such as may be necessary to prevent infringement upon the freedoms of others, to avert an imminent danger, to maintain social order, or to promote public welfare. Article 24 Any public employee who, in violation of law, infringes upon the freedom or right of any person shall, in addition to being subject to disciplinary punishment in accordance with law, be liable to criminal and civil action. The victim may, in accordance with law, claim damages from the State for any injury sustained therefrom. Chapter III The National Assembly Article 25 The National Assembly shall, in accordance with the provisions of this Constitution, exercise political rights on behalf of all the citizens of the country. Article 26 The National Assembly shall be composed of the following Delegates: 1. One Delegate shall be elected from each County, Municipality, or area of equivalent status. In case the population of the electoral district exceeds 500,000, one additional Delegate shall be elected for each additional 500,000. The election of Delegates representing areas equivalent in status to the County or Municipality shall be prescribed by law. Article 31 The National Assembly shall meet at the seat of the Central Government. Article 32 No Delegate to the National Assembly shall be held responsible outside the Assembly for opinions expressed or votes cast at meetings of the Assembly. Article 33 While the Assembly is in session, no Delegate to the National Assembly shall, except in case of flagrante delicto, be arrested or detained without the permission of the National Assembly. Article 34 The organization of the National Assembly, the election and recall of Delegates to the National Assembly, and the procedure whereby the National Assembly carries out its functions shall be prescribed by law. Chapter IV The Presidency Article 35 The President shall be the Chief of State and shall represent the Republic of China in foreign relations. Article 36 The President shall have supreme command of the army, navy, and air force of the country. Article 37 The President shall, in accordance with law, promulgate laws and issue mandates with the countersignature of the President of the Executive Yuan or with the countersignatures of both the President of the Executive Yuan and the Ministers or Chairmen of Commissions concerned. Article 38 The President shall, in accordance with the provisions of this Constitution, exercise the powers of concluding treaties, declaring war, and making peace. Article 39 The President may, in accordance with law, declare martial law with the approval of, or subject to confirmation by, the Legislative Yuan. When the Legislative Yuan deems it necessary, it may, by a formal resolution, request the President to lift the martial law already declared. Article 40 The President shall, in accordance with law, exercise the powers of amnesty, pardon, remission of sentence, and restitution of civil rights. Article 41 The President shall, in accordance with law, appoint and dismiss civil and military officers. Article 42 The President may, in accordance with law, confer honors and decorations. But the action thus taken shall be submitted to the Legislative Yuan for confirmation within one month after issuance of the emergency orders. In case the Legislative Yuan withholds confirmation, the said orders shall immediately become null and void. Article 44 In case of disputes, involving two or more Yuan, other than those for which provisions are made in this Constitution, the President may call a meeting of the Presidents of the Yuan concerned to work out a solution therefore. Article 45 Any citizen of the Republic of China who has reached the age of forty may be elected President or Vice President. Article 46 The election of the President and the Vice President shall be prescribed by law. Article 47 The President and the Vice President shall serve a term of six years. Should I break my oath, I will submit myself to severe punishment by the State. Article 49 In case the office of the President should become vacant, the Vice President shall succeed to it until the expiration of the original Presidential term. In case the President should, for any cause, be unable to attend to his official du...