3/7     So I'm not a Christian but I thought Passion of the Christ was pretty
        cool, especially the costumes and the different languages they used.
        At any rate, since I'm not a Christian, I'm wondering why the Arab/Jew
        people wanted Jesus to be crucified? Didn't they show that he
        was well liked before? What happened to his followers? Why didn't
        they help him?                  -ignorant but curious agnostic guy
             \- hello you may wish to see ~psb/MOTD/XtainsJewsRomans --psb
        \_ Jesus followers were scared.  they could be killed themselves.
        \_ There were a couple of things involved here.  First of all, in
           the manner of Christ's teaching, he was claiming to be God,
           which was heresy in the eyes of the Jewish religious leaders.
           Secondly, he had managed to really piss off the Pharisees, a
           sect of Judaism that had considered themselves more holy than
           anyone else due to their more stringent rules of behavior.
           Jesus taught a number of times to them and called them "brood of
           vipers" and basically said that they had missed the forest for
           the trees, and was branding their particular form of legalism
           as true righteousness.  As for the common people, and Judas...
           there is a common theological belief that perhaps the Jewish people
           were expecting the Messiah to be a political figure that would
           help lead the overthrow of the Roman occupation, thus fulfilling
           the Old Testament prophecy that he would be a savior of his
           people.  The zealot movement may have been one of the reasons
           why Jesus was killed, since he showed no real sign that he was
           going to be that leader.  -- chaos
        \_ The short version of what Chaos said is that Jesus was basically
           a trouble maker, he rubbed everyone the wrong way, he was asking
           for it and got what was coming to him for being such a dick.  The
           historical Jesus knew what was coming and had lots of time to leave
           the city and stop stirring shit up which is all any of the Powers
           That Be really wanted but Jesus was having none of that.  No one
           really *wanted* to kill Jesus.  The people then were no more blood
           thirsty or barbaric than people today.  If you knew what you were
           doing was stirring up a witch hunt that was almost certain to lead
           to your death would you stick around and keep stirring or shut up
           and go elsewhere until things cooled off?  Jesus chose death.
           \_ not really, they loved him when he was healing the sick,
              performing other miracles like feeding 5000. They didn't
              he was forgiving sins.
              \_ Two very different "they"s.  "They" the people love anyone who
                 makes their miserable lives better.  "They" the authorities
                 don't care either way until you step on "their" toes.
                 \_ Nah, there was big trouble with or without Jesus.  There
                    were multiple violent revolts against the Romans before
                    Jesus, and not long after Jesus, the Romans sent many
                    legions to flatten Jerusalem, leading to patriotic but
                    futile actions like the Masada resistance and mass
                    suicide of the Jews.  You have Jews advocating violence
                    on one side, Roman pets like Herod on the other, and
                    corrupt Jewish priests like Caiaphas who tried to appease
                    both sides, so as to continue to exploit the common
                    people and live extravagantly.  Jesus offered a vision
                    and a way out, for the Jews, and also applicable to
                    everyone else.
                    \_ Technically it wasn't mass suicide.  It was mass murder
                       followed by a single suicide.  Anyway, as for the rest,
                       yes everything was a mess and Jesus knew what he was
                       doing when he stuck his nose in it.
                       \_ it was mass assisted suicide followed by a single
                          unassisted one.
                          \_ the concept of allowing someone to kill you being
                             suicide vs. murder is worthy of more than a sub-
                             thread on the motd.  they believed it was not
                             suicide which is why they did it that way.  one
                             could extrapolate back and say their entire
                             rebelion was suicide but it doesn't work like that
           \_ thanks guys, I understand this part of history a lot better
              now.  My question is, why Christians later HATE Roman and Greeks?
              I am talking about systematic destruction of Roman and Greek
              knowledge and literatures by the Christian church, and the deep
              resentment toward Roman Empire as a whole?
              \_ I'm not entirely sure what period of history you're
                 referring to in this question.  After hundreds of years of
                 persecution, the Roman Empire adopted Christianity as its
                 official religion (via Emperor Constantine) and the
                 canonization process of the Bible took place because
                 Constantine wanted an official document for his troops.
                 -chaos
                 \_ the time between fall of (western) Roman Empire and
                    Renaissance.  Christian Churchs were systemtically
                    destorying classical literatures.  I thought this is a
                    well-known facts.
                    \_ Erm, as I've heard it, the Church and its libraries
                       were what preserved a great deal of literature that
                       otherwise would have been lost.
                       \_ This is only a very small truth. It was Muslims who
                          preserved the vast majority of this work. Sometime
                          later, the Christian church began rediscovering this
                          material, more often than not having to translate it
                          from Arabic. For a good historical fictionalization
                          of this process, check Umberto Eco's "The Name of the
                          Rose" - the book not the movie.
                          \_ One of those movies ruined by some loudmouth idiot
                             when I was in school and had to wait almost 10
                             years to enjoy later... sigh.
                    \_ I must've missed the part about Christians hating
                       Greeks, since the Greek church is the Christian
                       church. Maybe you should elaborate upon this. I
                       don't recall the Church destroying the Iliad.
                       \- hello there are significant differences in values
                          and such between the homeric greeks, the golden
                          age of athens [plato, the famous attic dramatists],
                          and the koine period. we dont interchangable use
                          "italians and romans" or "franks and the french".
                          if you are really interested, you can see if this
                          lecture was recorded: http://csua.org/u/6bv
                          although that may be a little hard to follow. --psb
                          \_ it's all greek to me.
                       \_ thankfully not, just skimming it was worth 20% of
                          my final grade in my ancient greece history class.
        \_ It's all about power. Sure Jesus starts out talking about love,
           peace, and God, but what happens if he attracts LOTS of followers?
           Who knows what's going to happen? Revolt and seize Palastine? The
           Romans dealt with it by knocking off those who they couldn't
           control or couldn't trust. Those in power under the blessing of
           the Romans did the same thing. Keep things nice, calm, and stable.
           \_ Jesus did attract a lot of followers, and Christianity
              eventually spread through the Roman Empire.  On the other
              hand those who advocated violent resistance against the
              Romans (equally guilty are the Roman toadies) finally brought the
              Roman legions to Jerusalem's gates not long after Jesus' time.
                      \_ Christians don't worship Jesus, they worship The Holy
                         Trinity.
                         \_ That is just a BS handwaving excuse to try
                            and disguise the fact that Christians worship
                            a dead human being and do not follow the First
                            Commandment. Christians pray to Christ, put
              Roman legions to Jerusalem's gates not long after Jesus' time.
                            shrines of Christ in their temples and ask
                            Christ to save them. Trying to claim that they
                            do not "worship" Jesus is hogwash. At the very
                            least they hold up a dead man as equal to God.
        \_ "One day, a Jewish guy was lamenting that his son had become a
           Christian. The other one says, funny you should mention it. My son,
           too. They decide to talk to God about it. God says: Funny you
           should mention it." --Bob Alper, 59, Vermont rabbi
           \_ is the quote trying to suggest that God is Jewish?
                   themselves differently? Same with Catholics vs. Christian vs.\
                   Jahov's witness vs. some other gangs vs. etc
              \_ Do you like being stupid.
              \_ Hmm.  Two Jewish Guys.  Talking to their God....
                \_ I'm just confused with this Christian and Jew thing. Don't
                   they worship the same God? If they do, why do they label
                   themselves differently? Same with Catholics vs. Christian vs.
                   Jahov's witness vs. some other gangs vs. etc
                   \_ Yeah, Jews worship God. Christians worship a man.
                      Stop censoring this fuckhead. -goy
                      \_ Christians don't worship Jesus.  They worship God and
                         revere Jesus as the son of God.
                         \_ If you haven't studied it, don't claim to know.
                         \_ Why do they all end their prayers with
                            "In Jesus name, Amen"?
                            \_ Because he's revered, duh.  They pray to God
                               "Oh most merciful God..."
                                  Christians, who twist anything to their
                               \_ Jews and Muslims manage to pray to God
                                  own liking.
                                  without sneaking some third person in there.
                                  Why is that? Because they take God's
                                  commandments seriously, unlike the
                                  Christians, who twist everything to their
                                  own liking. I mean look at this:
                                  http://www.ocf.org/OrthodoxPage/prayers/creed.html
                                  Number 1 and number 2 contradict themselves.
                                  The whole Christian religion is founded on
                                  this schizophrenia.  [formatd]
                                _/
          The Nicene Creed was born out of a conference held to answer the
          question of what exactly was the relationship of God and Jesus.  Was
          Jesus God taking human form?  Was Jesus made by God to teach us?  Was
          he concieved?  They wanted to agree on one version and settle
          controversies.  Nicea was basically a big compromise.  They decided
          that Jesus was not God, but was of the same being as God, which is
                             \_ Hmm... "God of God, Light of Light, True God
                                of True God.
                                \_ But there's "Jesus Christ, the Son of God
                                   ... being of one essence with the Father"
          a bit weird.  It's like saying they're part of the same thing.  Kind
          of like Jesus is an appendage of God, to get a bit anthropomorphic.
          \_ The best way to understand the relationship between Christ and
             God is to read what Jesus says about it in the Gospels.
             Everything else is just people's interpretations of what Jesus
             says.
             \_ Jesus roolz, church droolz.
             \_ He couldv'e written a man page or something.  I hate when the
                developers don't bother to document their shit.
                \_ what do you mean?  that's the official man page.
                   \_ No.  That's a revision history.
                      \_ yea, like from beta to official release
          \_ I think it's slightly inaccurate.  You might want to read John
             1.  Most theologically orthodox Christian groups follow the
             Apostles' Creed, which claims that Jesus was fully God, fully
             human.  -chaos
             \_ The Nicene Creed is used by Catholics and, IIRC, most
                Protestants, so it's fairly representative of the Christians
                you'd find in America.
                \_ Jesus Christ is True God and True Man.  Catholics and
                   many other Christians believe this.

[so which is worse?  people overwriting other people's stuff or motdedit
 munging the order things are posted so they don't make sense anymore?]