3/1     Three generations ago, it was routine for an 18 year old
        and a 17 year old to strike out on their own, get married,
        settle and work a 160 acre piece of land, build their own
        house with their neighbors help and start having children.
        These young people strike me as mature. Perhaps some things
        have changed in 100 years, but human nature has not. Do
        not confuse the fact that you don't know any mature 18
        year olds with the idea that there are none anywhere in
        the world.
        \_ I too long for the days where I could exploit the lower
           class. Thousands of slaves, living hand to mouth, working
           in factories with cheap, unreliable equipment... you could
           throw away dozens of lives a day and no one could do
           anything about it!  What a paradise that time was!
        \_ I too long for the days where I could exploit the lower class.
           Thousands of slaves, living hand to mouth, working in factories
           with cheap, unreliable equipment... you could throw away dozens of
           lives a day and no one could do anything about it!  What a paradise
           that time was!
        \_ There is much historically lacking in this statement.
           This version hasn't been acceptable even
           in high school level textbooks for, I'm guessing, about
           twenty years. Please don't take this as a personal attack
           but, well, you just need to do more reading before making
           statements like this if you expect to be taken seriously.
           Note that your core thesis - that individuals were often
           in positions of greater responsibility at an earlier age
           in the 19th century US is essentially correct IIRC - for a
           particular number of socioeconomic strata. The same could,
           however, likely be said for people from comparable
           backgrounds today. Take, for instance, a single teenage
           mother in Compton or the Rust Belt. -- ulysses
           \_ Just because it isn't PC to talk about the settlers
              doesn't mean it didn't happen. My great grandfather left
              home at 15, got a job as a ranch hand, and settled his
              own 1/4 section at 19 with his young bride, so I know it
              happened. I really don't see what in my statement would
              imply that there are no mature teenagers here since I
              stated the opposite. And yes, I agree, it has a lot to
              do with socioeconomic opportunities and responsibilities.
              I know young people that have worked since 14 and helped
              raise little brothers and sisters and are pretty mature
              compared to your average Cal student.
              \_ My very bad. I re-read your post and I was being a braindead
                 since, as you say, you had already pointed out that people
                 all over are in the position of being responsible for a
                 family at an early age. However, the main innaccuracy stands.
                 Though the anecdotal example of your own background shows one
                 example of the settler model, the majority of
                 individuals from the same period did not settle land - that's
                 pretty much just Western mythology. And, of those that did,
                 the vast majority did not make it more than a couple of
                 seasons. Good for your grandparents, though. I hope somebody
                 in your family has decided to write all down since those
                 experiences make for great histories. -- ulysses
              \_ Bully for grandpa. Your anecdotal evidence doesn't support
                 a trend, doesn't tell us anything about his maturity at the
                 time, and doesn't change the fact that _today's_ 18 year
                 old is remarkably immature when compared to today's 23 year
                 old, let alone today's 28 year old.
                 \_ It really depends on the 18 year old, the 23 year old
                    and the 28 year old. Young people are capable of being
                    mature, even if most are not, that is the point.
           in the 19th century US is essentially correct IIRC - for a
           particular number of socioeconomic strata. The same could,
           however, likely be said for people from comparable
           backgrounds today. Take, for instance, a single teenage
           mother in Compton or the Rust Belt. -- ulysses
           \_ Just because it isn't PC to talk about the settlers doesn't
              mean it didn't happen. My great grandfather left home at 15,
              got a job as a ranch hand, and settled his own 1/4 section
              at 19 with his young bride, so I know it happened. I really
              don't see what in my statement would imply that there are
              no mature teenagers here since I stated the opposite.
              And yes, I agree, it has a lot to do with socioeconomic
              opportunities and responsibilities. I know young people
              that have worked since 14 and helped raise little brothers
              and sisters and are pretty mature compared to your average
              Cal student.
                    \_ I'm a fanatical individualist, so I certainly won't
                       argue that point with you.  In general, however, you
                       know you've got an uphill battle convincing anyone
                       that 18 year olds are more mature than 23 year olds.
                       \_ No one has said or implied that except for you.
        \_ We coddle our youngsters here.