2/12    link:csua.org/u/5zk (sorry, you gotta register now)
        Most Americans believe President Bush either lied or deliberately
        exaggerated evidence that Iraq possessed weapons of mass destruction
        in order to justify war, according to a new Washington Post-ABC News
        poll. ... The survey found that while nearly seven in 10 think Bush
        "honestly believed" Iraq had weapons of mass destruction, 54 percent
        thought Bush exaggerated or lied about pre-war intelligence. ... In a
        head-to-head matchup, Kerry beat Bush, 52 percent to 43 percent,
        among registered voters polled by the Post.
        \_ Head-to-head matchups always look like that at this stage.  Kerry
           is still the generic "other" candidate at this point.  Once voters
           get a chance to learn more about him he'll drop like a rock.  This
           happens at every election.  Is this your first?
        \_ I wonder how many people believe, as I do, that Bush lied, but
           that the invasion of Iraq was the right thing to do anyway(
           albeit 10 years overdue.)
           \_ why dont' we invade North Korea, then?
              \_ People keep saying this, and it sounds stupid every time.
                 North Korea has more than a million troops, artillery trained
                 on Seoul, lots of poison gas they have been testing on humans
                 for a decade, and tacit support from China, which could
                 suddenly turn very much less tacit in case of an invasion.
                 North Korea is the most fucked up thing in the world today,
                 but there is little we can do about it.
                 \_ don't forget, they've got nukes
                 \_ Isolating North Korea is just as stupid as sanctioning
                    Iraq.  All the surrounding nations know that the best
                    way to deal with North Korea is to help them open up
                    to the rest of the world rather than being unnecessarily
                    antagonistic towards it.
                    \_ It's tricky with the state sponsored terrorism and
                       lies and general bad attitude they've always had.
                       Not to meantion it has traditionally pissed off
                       the south.  Don't think it hasn't been tried.
                       (Carter anyone?) Read "The Two Koreas" Oberdorfer
                       and come back.
                       \_ Carter?  But that was when the Soviet Union still
                          exist, and when China is still truly commie.
                          These days, even China is encouraging N.Korea
                          to open up.  It's time to try again.
                          \_ China is no different today.  It's still a one
                             party dictatorship.  China is still a tightly
                             controlled and closed country.  They're not the
                             poster boys for opening up.
                             \_ what have you been smoking?  china is
                                following the classic path to prosperity
                                and open society followed by all the esteemed
                                US allies like japan, sk, taiwan, spore,
                                etc. - open economy up first while
                                retaining authoritarian rule, do that
                                for like 20 years, then go for democracy.
              \_ Nukes and Japan don't mix. Well, not anymore....
                 \_ They mixed quite well last time.
           \_ I think WMD was one of several things they had to choose from to
              justify the invasion.  The intel was wrong and they got burned.
              I never really cared either way what WMD Iraq had.  I have always
              believed that to have left Hussein in power after the first GW
              was painfully stupid so kudos to anyone who finally got rid of
              the vicious evil psycho bastard.  The rest is white noise.
              \_ No, GWHB was right not to destroy Hussein during GW1. The
                 mistake was not following up afterwards when Saddam started
                 chemming his own people. That could have been justified and
                 probably created Kurdistan. Nation Building is hard.
                 \_ Why do you believe it was right?  I think it was horrible
                    that we/he encouraged a revolt and then let them get
                    slaughtered.  That one act caused more hatred and mistrust
                    (and rightly so) than anything else we've fucked up in the
                    area in decades.  I'm pro-Kurdistan if they'd give up the
                    anti-Turkey terrorism.
           \_ I know when this thing first got started I had no problem with
              the "getting serious" on Saddam's ass. And it seemed to be
              working. But then there was the buildup and rush to war that
              didn't make sense at just that time, except Bush had already
              started the buildup and was going in no matter what. So that
              whole situation didn't make sense, and it hurt US credibilty,
              and probably has cost us more in money and lives than need be.
              \_ There's no such thing as 'credibility' in the international
                 world.  Only power counts.  Military and economic power are
                 the source of all diplomatic power.  Nice guys finish last.
                 Peace with honor and all that, eh?
                 \_ Which explains why so many nations with large armies and
                    economies are beating down the US's door to help out in
                    Iraq AND the UN-sanctioned invasion of Afghanistan.
                    \_ Why should they?  It behooves them to let us spend our
                       troops and cash which weakens us which makes them
                       relatively strongly which is the ultimate goal of any
                       country.  Anyway, there are no other countries with
                       large armies and vibrant economies to help out.  It was
                       all for show the first time and we demonstrated that we
                       didn't need the dog'n'pony show the second time if they
                       didn't want to play along.  The United States has gone
                       beyond Super Power status.  No nation has ever had such
                       incredible military, economic, cultural, or diplomatic
                       might and influence over the rest of the world.  Rome is
                       dinky and provincial by comparison.  If this country
                       falls it can only happen from within or through an act
                       of God such as a plague which causes uncontrollable
                       social strife.
              \_ Look, I agree that Bush fucked it up.  I'm just saying
                 that between Bush Sr., Clinton, and Bush Jr., doing
                 nothing in Iraq but slowly killing them by sanctions
                 was a totally unacceptable course of action.
                 Also, while I'm neither a neocon nor a republican, I agree
                 strongly with the neocon position that drastically
                 changing the balance of power in the middle east is in the
                 best interests of America and the rest of the world and
                 that it's long overdue.
                 \_ only way to do so is to install an American-friendly
                    dictator in Iraq.  We's done that in Iran and the
                    balance of power shifted in other way.  From balance
                    of power point of view, support establishment of Palestine
                    would do more to shift balance power in our favor,
                    reduce the cause for anti-americanism, and estblish a
                    safer region for our energy supply.
                    \_ And lead to the destruction of the only democracy in
                       the middle east which we're just not willing to do.
           \_ Invasion of Iraq is bad idea.  There are better means to
              influence and change Iraq and the Middle East.  Military
              invasion is too costly, and the US military is now tied
              down there for an extended period, and budget deficit is
              shooting through the roof.  The problem with Americans is
              that they play too much shoot'em up video games.  Only problem
              is in the real world the game doesn't end after blasting away
              the bad guys.  Invasion of Iraq and getting rid of Saddam is
              easy and quickly attained, but the real task is nation building,
              and US has a crappy record of nation building.  Short-term
              national interest and influence of special interest groups
              usually get the upper-hand over what is in the best
              interest of the nation and people we are supposedly trying
              to help.  Only thing we can do is keep on attacking the
              Bush admin and the following Kerry admin to keep them on the
              right track as opposed to capitulating to the evil side of
              US Imperialism.
              \_ The Kerry admin?  You were doing really well until you got
                 silly at the end.  If you had done this straight instead of
                 turning it into a partisan rant you would have been more
                 convincing.  "US Imperialism" isn't what you think it is.
                 The thing other countries fear most in the long run is not
                 our military, but our culture.  They all know we're not going
                 to just take over the world like the Romans conquering every-
                 thing in sight.  But our culture is something that easily
                 spreads through tv, radio, movies, and multinational corps
                 using highly advanced advertising techniques that their people
                 aren't used to and can't ignore as well as we can.  *That* is
                 where we're truly conquering the world and they know it.  The
                 military thing is just the standard ancient bit about securing
                 resources.  Romanization took many generations in conquered
                 territories and often didn't stick while costing the Romans
                 untold wealth to fund their endless military campaign.  But
                 Americanization actually generates wealth while conquering
                 other cultures.  It can be a bit slower but it is unstoppable
                 and they all know it.  *That* is what the Muslim fascists are
                 fighting against and why they hate us.  That is why we can
                 never make peace with them.  They see our very existence as
                 a threat to their continued existence.
              \_ Um.  The US has a crappy record of nation building?  Wtf are
                 you smoking Mr. Chicom troll?  US basically built all of the
                 western post WWII world from scratch.  Its successes include
                 modern Western Europe and Japan.  The successes of your
                 favorite country China include a broken off independent
                 Taiwan, and the happy amusement park full of gulags and gas
                 chambers that is North Korea.
                 \_ Are you on drugs?  Western Europe nations have a long
                    history of democratic institutions, highly educated
                    population and strong industries stretching back
                    decades before WWII.  It's a matter of putting things
                    back together as opposed to starting out from nothing.
                    It also shares cultural heritage with the US.  Finally,
                    WWII wasn't started by the US.  We intevened when
                    we were attacked, whereas in Iraq, we started the war
                    to destroy non-existent WMD.  This is in contrast to
                    Afghanistan where we justifiably invaded because that's
                    where Osama is hiding.  The general principle should
                    always be to set a good example, and to use soft power
                    to influence and cajol, and to only use the military
                    when there is an imminent threat.  As for your chicom
                    name calling, let me put it this way: calling me a
                    chicom is as silly as calling Bush Jr. a Vietnam War
                    war hero.
                    \_ I think this statement should be modified.  NO ONE
                       has a "good" record of nation building.  The US has
                       a realitively good one, with places like S. Korea
                       and the phillipines under its belt.  All of western
                       Europe has a terriable one.  I think it's just a
                       bad idea in general.
                       \_ I don't disagree with you.  Some questions for
                          the two examples of successful nation building
                          you have given:  How many decades were SK and
                          Philippines ruled by dictators after US "interven-
                          tion"?  How long did it take for SK to climb out of
                          poverty?  When will that happen for the Philippines?
                          How many people were killed by the dictators
                          in say island of Cheju?  Nation building is best
                          done by the people of the nation itself, perhaps
                          with some soft power encouragement from the US.
                          \_ The interesting question is not "when" or "how
                             long" but why did SK crawl out of poverty?  The
                             answer is they opened up and started trading with
                             us and joined the West.  The rest of the world
                             will remain a shithole until they recognise the
                             failure of their current system and westernise.
                             \_ Nah, it seems that you haven't realized, but
                                the question has always been what is the
                                best way to make them join us.  And then
                                there is another question which is whether
                                we really are trying to help them join us
                                or just catering to our self-term interest
                                or trying to build another british empire.