1/30 Speaking of liberal vs. conservative, what's with conservatives and
biology education?
http://csua.org/u/5s0
\_ It's not even really "conservatives". It's the fucking
evangelicals.
\_ The Republican party is at their beck and call. Change that or
stop pretending there's a difference.
\_ Who are a huge power base in the Republican party, and voted for
Bush in record numbers, so he definitely owes them (84% of
evangelicals voted for Bush in 2000, as opposed to 75% for
Reagan).
\_ I'm a conservative (not the libertarian kind). Evolution can
be explained, IMHO, but not as gospel truth as it is told
today. Offering other theories as very good alternatives is
a great idea (it doesn't have to be the strict creationist view).
\_ I demand equal time for my religious creation theory,
namely, that I created everything and therefore, you
are all my property and owe me homage and service.
\_ creationism in any degree of strictness is a faith, not a theory.
\_ earth created in 7 days is a strict view of creationism
(versus earth created over many many years)
\_ Any view of creationism is based on faith.
A view that doesn't hold God to 7 literal days might
at least be compatible with the physical evidence,
but that doesn't make it a theory. -tom
\_ Accepting evolution with the kind of defensive
vehemence I commonly see among bio types has to
be based on faith too. Where do bacteria
come from? I don't have to be a religious nut
to be a creationist, nor do I have to be a
creationist to be sceptical about evolution.
I can postulate some hitherto unknown
mechanism for the creation of 'bacterial
nanobots' without invoking the ugly F
word.
-- ilyas
\_ tell us about the stars, ilyas
\_ Being skeptical and flat out rejecting are
(obviously) two very different behaviors.
--scotsman
\_ I was addressing Tom's claim that any view
of creationism is based on faith, which is
a false claim. -- ilyas
\_ Then you haven't made the point. Do you
have emperical evidence to base some view
of creationism upon? Or is this one of those
"unknown unknowns" discussions? Also, as
the person below pointed out, evolution doesn't
even attempt to explain the origin of life.
\_ by the way, "jove /etc/motd.public"
also doesn't provide privacy
protection, gmartin. -tom
--scotsman
\_ How is "some hitherto unknown mechanism"
different from God? Unless you're talking
about a physical process we don't understand
yet. There are plenty of plausible theories
as to how protein structures first started
replicating themselves which don't require
a deus ex machina. -tom
\_ I am not aware of any theory which presents
an unbroken line which starts with chemicals
and ends with bacteria (the simplest form
of life not counting oddly devolved
borderline cases like viruses). There is
also no evidence for any such chain to give
us hints. Currently, I conclude that either
life arose somewhere where such a record
does exist (Mars?) and moved here via
spores, or we got pollinated by ET or God or
something like that. I don't reject the
existence of God, so having to fall back
on something like that as a possibility
doesn't bother me, except in a sense that
it makes a hypothesis inelegant (but not
unfalsifiable, necessarily). -- ilyas
\_ OK, fair enough--you can believe
absurd things without believing in
creationism. Is that your point? -tom
\_ It's not "based on faith". Evolution doesn't
specifically cover the origin of the first life.
It's about *evolution*. We obviously don't have
a lot of evidence about the earliest life, or
how similar that was to bacteria.
\_ possible theories/views:
a. earth created in 7 days
b. Evolution
c. certainly there should be many other theories
not covering a) or b)
\_ There's also the "aged earth" theory. Similar to
how Adam was created with the appearance of a
grown man, rather than an infant, so too the earth
was created with the appearance of age.
\_ That's not a theory--it's completely
tautological. "The physical world was created
by God exactly the way it is now." It's
impossible to prove or disprove, because
it doesn't do anything at all to attempt
to *explain* the physical world, which is what
a theory does. -tom
\_ 'Theories which can not be tested are
critical
examination. They should be
taught to examine everything
philosophies.'
thumpers
with mentioning its
are the only ones trying to
suppress knowledge.
\_ And the dinosaur bones were planted by god to
tempt the weak of faith.... If we're going to
go down this route, let's remember the good
Bishop Berkeley who wrote that we are all but
thoughts in the mind of god; there's as much
evidence for that as there is for creationism.
\_ you overwrote my post. use motdedit.
\_ sorry. but motdedit has no privacy protections
\_ why does it have any less privacy protection
than "jove /etc/motd.public". It doesn't
log accesses, and if you don't want to
wait in queue, then use motdedit -n
\_ where is motdedit?
/csua/bin/motdedit
/csua/bin/motdedit -h for help
\_ and when you're a complete moron, you need
privacy protections, eh?
"earth created in 7 days" is not a theory.
It's not supported by a single observable
fact. It might have been a hypothesis at one
point, and now it's been shown to be false
by the vast preponderance of physical
evidence. -tom
\_ look. I'm not a supporter of a.
I'm thinking more about the lines of
b) and c) above. Schools tend to
teach b) as gospel truth.
\_ yes, tom found me out.
\_ They also teach Physics as gospel
truth. There's about as much
evidence for evolution as for
reason.
\_ I think you don't realize
how much our understanding
that model, so why do conservatives
suddenly start hedging their bets
when the subject of biology comes up?
we should teach the first tier
theories first.
- yet another poster
of the laws of physics
changes all the time. Does
the discovery of a new type
of quark invalidate GR?
\_ There is a theory that
birds are descendants of
dinosaurs. It is a low
tier theory because while
there are evidence supporting
it and evidence countering
it. Macro evolution is
lower tier than our many
laws of physics for the same
that model, so why do conservatives
suddenly start hedging their bets
when the subject of biology comes up?
\_ not all conservatives believe
in 7 day creationism.
\_ they teach evolution just like they
teach any other scientific theory.
Why should it be singled out?
\_ There are many tiers of
theories based on how strong
the evidence is. theory of
gravity is first tier. theory
of evolution is second tier
or third tier depending on
which part of this complex
theory you are talking about.
In particular, macroevolution
is much weaker than micro-
evolution. I am not against
teaching evolution but we need
to mention the holes in it
when teaching it. And all
other factors being equal,
we should teach the first tier
theories first.
- yet another poster
\_ I agree.
\_ Why don't they teach the holes in
Christianity? Actually, they're not
"holes" so much as "tenets incon-
sistent with scientific facts".
Evolutionary theory is pretty well
established. There isn't any theory
that is 100% known and hole-free.
\_ Christianity does not claim
that it could be empirically
proven. Yea, I agree that
a woman giving birth without
having sex is inconsistent
with scientific facts. Is
that your point?
\_ Are you interested in
teaching our kids to
examine evolutionary theory
critically, or are you more
interested in covering up
its holes so as to use it
to advance your anti-
Christianity agenda?
\_ Science is all about
critical examination.
They should be taught
to examine everything
critically. The bible-
thumpers are the only
ones trying to suppress
knowledge.
\_ don't forget the
anti-Christian fanatics
who want to teach
evolution theory
without mentioning its
flaws.
\_ I haven't seen any
evidence that anyone
wants to hide "flaws"
in evolution. -tom
\_
Really? I have.
let's put it this way,
I won't tell my kids birds
are descended from dinosaurs
and I don't feel
that our educational system
should tell my kids that
humans are descended
from amoeba without
presenting it as a theory
with very significant holes.
\_ you haven't specified any
of the holes.
\_ well, I haven't
heard anyone say
why it is a good
theory either. Go
pick up a book or
stfw if you want to
go into the details.
\_ Sounds like you're
the one who needs to
pick up a book.
\_ I see what your issue is,
now. The fact that *you*
don't understand something
doesn't mean that the
theory is bad. -tom
\_ Do *you* understand
everything about it?
If not, how did you
conclude that the
theory is good?
\_ All the evidence so far
indicates that birds are
descended from dinos. While
I agree that we need to
teach children to question
I think it's pigheadedness
to deny that the argument
for birds being descended
from dinos is strong.
\_ I don't think you can say that
the Theory of Gravity (do you
really mean to say General
Relativity?) is any stronger or
weaker than the Theory of
Evolution. Both are subject
to modification in light of
new information. Both have
a tremendous body of evidence
supporting them. If anything,
The Theory of Evolution is
more important because of its
larger impact on societies
view of itself and probably
it is more important to teach
it. -biophysics grad
\_ There is a theory that
birds are descendants of
dinosaurs. It is a low
tier theory because while
there are evidence supporting
it and evidence countering
it. Macro evolution is
lower tier than our many
laws of physics for the same
reason. As for importance,
sure (that's why I said
"all other factors being
equal" above), but we need
to becareful here because
its very importance makes
its teaching subject to
non-science related pressures
from all sides.
\_ I think you don't realize
how much our understanding
of the laws of physics
changes all the time. Does
the discovery of a new type
of quark invalidate GR?
\_ You miss the point.
Let me ask you this:
Do you agree that some
theories are stronger
than others? If you
do, we have no
disagreement. If your
point is that your
knowledge of physics
is better than mine,
I agree with you.
\_ If you're not going to use motdedit, at least
have the courtesy to run an editor that can
tell you when changes have been made to the
file, then copy your work, exit w/o saving,
reopen the file, and paste your work. I don't
use motdedit, but I don't overwrite other
people's posts, either.
\_ is there such a thing as a Jewish Creationist?
\_ http://www.orot.com/ec.html#Anchor-19500
\_ http://www.ucmp.berkeley.edu/history/evotmline.html
there are darwinians, neo-darwinians, and non-darwinians. |