Berkeley CSUA MOTD:Entry 11965
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2025/07/09 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
7/9     

2004/1/27-28 [Reference/Military] UID:11965 Activity:very high
1/27    What will happen with a match between a Kendo master and a western
        style swordsman.
        \_ You are asking what would happen if a guy with a bamboo stick
           and some padding fought another guy with a real sword and real
           armor?
        \_ I saw a very detailed article online somewhere analyzing what would
           happen in a duel between a Samurai and a European knight.  It sort of
           said they each were trained/equipped to fight a different type of
           opponent, and the answer was it was inconclusive.  One of them would
           probably strike a lucky blow and that would be the end of it.
           \_ do you remember where you read/saw the article?
              \_ I found it, then someone else found it too...
                 http://www.thehaca.com/essays/knightvs.htm
        \_ aren't Japanese swords superior and can cut any inferior
           Dark Age sword/armor? On the other hand Samurais don't have
           much armor, so... yeah it's hard to say.
                \_ Japanese samurai get a bonus against other infantry
                   in the Imperial Age.
                   \_ It is as it was.
           \_ You need to compare the sword from the height of each age.
              Japanese swords were designed for slashing at laquer or padded
              armors.  European sword were designed for crushing of piercing
              mail and plate armors.  One sword cutting another only happens in
              movies.
              \_ This is false.  Well-made european (one-handed) swords could
                 chop through mail.  I d like to see a katana do that.
              \_ there were some guys at some university using modern material
                 science to design the ultimate sword. i think there was a press
                 release or something about it, if you care to search for it.
                 it may have been on slashdot too.
        \_ There are many different Eastern and Western sword styles. Much
           depends on armor and sword quality, and era. Light armor, two
           weapon style (E vs. W) would be the coolest to watch. I'd actually
           give the edge to late era Western style.
        \_ Knight wins, Kendo guy would have to pierce the armor.
        \_ http://www.thehaca.com/essays/knightvs.htm
        \_ Mighty Mouse would totally beat Superman.
           \_ You know that's not true!  SMan would r0x MMs s0x!
              \_ Mighty Mouse equips Rod of Terror and casts Power Word, Kill!
                 \_ SM has spell resistence of 75, makes the save, and punches
                    MM for 85d6!  Take that you cartoon freak!
        \_ I think you also have to consider physical features. For example,
           by the theory of evolution the survivors of The Plague in Europe
           are in fact bigger and stronger than say, scrawny little Asian
           genes that didn't get weeded out by European disease.  -go Darwin
                \_ you forgot to mention intelligence. I have no doubt that
                   scrawny little Asian men survived because of their
                   superior intelligence and superior organizational skills.
                   Damn motd is full of white supremacists      -Asian man
                   \_ No, motd is full of trolls.  You have been trolled.  Wee!
                   \_ no, the asian man survived because the white man hadn't
                      found reason to wipe him out at that point.  japan was
                      just a rock and china always had too many living on too
                      little which is just plain stupid, frankly.
           \_ yes you are a troll, but in the http article above, it
              does mention physical stature.
           \_ The plague was spread from China to Europe.
              \_ Well, that's the Genghis Khan theory, but more recent theories
                 claim it came from east Africa (Egypt, Nubia etc.)  My theory
                 is that plague predates human.  Unless you can travel in time,
                 there is no scientific point in such speculation.
                 \_ I am referring specifically to the one big outbreak
                    in 1347 to 1352 which killed like 1/3 of Europe's
                    population.  Even if the East Africa theory is
                    correct, the plague did not spare China, causing
                    widespread deaths in 1330s before it spread to
                    Europe.  Historically, and today (SARS, flu, etc.),
                    lots of diseases / new mutations of diseases come
                    from China, due to its population density, weather,
                    etc.
                    \_ don't forget the dirtiness.
                       \_ and the Communism.
                        \_ and the sex with chickens.
2025/07/09 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
7/9     

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Cache (8192 bytes)
www.thehaca.com/essays/knightvs.htm
Thus, in considering the historical record on cross-cultural collisions in different locations, would we want to give the edge to the more socially diverse Europeans on this? On an individual basis then, we must consider what effect might be played by the quality of fatalism within the samurai code of bushido, or rather the resolute acceptance of death that motivated the fiercest samurai. But then, we cannot overlook the quality of piety and faith that could motivate a noble knight to great feats, or of the ideals of chivalry that he might uphold to the death. Its possible a Medieval European knight would have a certain disdain and scorn for his foreign, pagan adversary. Of course, the Japanese warriors well-known attitude of proud invincibility and readiness to die for his lord could equally make him vulnerable to an unfamiliar foe. Contempt for life and contempt for a dangerous, unknown opponent you might underestimate can be a disastrous combination. While courage is important, fighting spirit alone is insufficient. There are surely intangibles here that we cannot be measured with any reliability. These and other non-quantifiable, psychological factors aside, we are left with weapons, armor, and training. If youve never trained in it, you cant imagine how it affects your movements and execution of even simple actions. It has been said that while Europeans designed their armor to defeat swords, the Japanese designed their swords to defeat armor. The better Japanese armor was constructed of small overlapping lacquered metal scales or plates tied together with silk cords in order to specifically resist the slicing cut of the katana. It allowed good freedom of movement while offering excellent protection. But if it got wet, the silk cords soaked up water and it became terribly heavy. Though the earliest styles of samurai armor were designed with large square plates more as a defense against arrows, the later forms were intended primarily to be used by and against similarly equipped swordsmen and to lessen the tremendous cutting capacity of their swords. But how would it hold up to the stabs of a narrowly pointed knightly sword? Medieval European armor was designed and shaped more to deflect strikes and absorb blunt force blows from lances and swords. A knights armor varied from simple byrnies of fine riveted maile chainmaile that could absorb slices and prevent cuts, to well-padded soft jackets, and metal coats-of-plates which were designed equally to protect from concussion weapons as penetrating thrusts. Maile armor existed in numerous styles and patterns but arguably reached its zenith in 15th century Western Europe, where closely-woven riveted links could resist any drawing slice as well as being proof against many slashes and thrusts from swords. A complete suit of fully articulated rigid plate-armor, which has been described as unequaled in its ingenuity and strength, was nearly resistant to sword blows and required entirely different specialized weapons to effectively defeat it. Plate-armor for foot combat was well-balanced, maneuverable, and sometimes even made of tempered steel. It was well-suited for fighting in, and is far from the awkward, lumbering clich presented by Hollywood. Unless youve worn accurate well-made plate of this kind, it is impossible to really know how it influenced the way a knight would move. Without the necessary weapons designed intentionally to face and defeat plate armor, any fighter armed with a sword alone would have difficulty katana or not. Indeed, full European plate armor with maile might very well damage the keen edge on particularly fine katanas. After all, we should not forget that despite the katanas vaunted cutting ability, the samurai were able to successfully rely on their armors as defense against it. There is every reason to imagine knightly armor would have been just as, if not more, effective. If we therefore assume the armors to be more evenly matched, say maile and partial plate for the knight as used around 1250, things would get more interesting. However, the samurai did often carry an excellent thick dagger which would have been quite useful. Curiously, each warrior was highly skilled in using their respective armor-piercing daggers and with close-in grappling something not generally known about actual knightly fencing skills. The Shield We must consider whether the knight in this hypothetical duel will be armed in the familiar shield and short sword style or will use only a single long-sword? Will the knight employ a center-gripped type with front umbo or one worn by enarme straps? Will the shield be the highly effective kite shape with its superb defense or one of the smaller, more maneuverable convex heater styles? Theres a reason virtually every culture developed the shield and that they were literally used for thousands of years. In 15th century Europe , it was only the combination of the development of full plate armor and two-handed swords combined with heavy pole-arms and powerful missile weapons that finally reduced the long reigning value of the shield in warfare. The Medieval style of sword and shield fighting is distinctly different from the two-hand grip and quick full-arm slashing cuts of Kenjutsu. Medieval short swords are properly wielded with more of a throw of the arm and a twist of the hips while making passing steps forward or back. Strikes are thrown from behind the shield while it simultaneously guards, feints, deflects, or presses. Fighting with sword and shield offers a well-rounded and strong defense that safely permits a wide range of both direct and combination attacks. A sword can cut quite well from almost all angles around or underneath a shield. Indeed, since the shield side is so well guarded, the opponent is the one limited to attacking to only one side the non-shield side. While a large shield does indeed close off a tremendous amount of targets to an attacker, it also limits, to a far smaller degree, freedom to attack by the shield user. As it comes out from behind their shield to strike, an attackers weapon can be counter-timed and counter-cut and this is indeed one tactic to employ against a shield user. A shield can be used offensively in a number of ways and at very close range. Katanas are powerful swords used with strong techniques, but thinking they could simply cleave through a stout Medieval shield is absurd. Medieval shields were fairly thick wood covered in leather and usually trimmed in metal. Not only that, they were highly maneuverable, making solid, shearing blows difficult. More likely, a blade would be momentarily stuck in the rim if it struck too forcefully. Unlike what is seen in the movies, or described in heroic literature, chopping into a shields edge can temporarily cause the sword blade to wedge into the shield for just an instant and thereby be delayed in recovering or renewing an attack and exposing the attackers arms to a counter-cut. Shields without metal rims were even favored for this very reason. Kenjutsu Japanese swordsmanship, though consisting of very effective counter-cutting actions, also has no real indigenous provisions for fighting shields. Although a skilled warrior could certainly improvise some, those unfamiliar with the formidable effectiveness and versatility of a sword and shield combination will have a hard time. The shield was not used the way typically shown in movies, video games, stage-combat, or historical role-playing organizations such as the SCA. Fighting against a Medieval shield is not simply a matter of maneuvering around it or aiming blows elsewhere. If a warrior does not really know the shield, or hasnt faced a good shield fighter, then they cannot be expected to know how to ideally fight against it. The Samurais Sword In major battles among each warrior, a suit of armor was typically worn and a sword wielded in one or two-hands. For the knight, the primary weapons had always been the long lance and the sword, and to a lesser degree the polaxe, dagger, and mace. The sword was always the foundational weapon of a Knights fencing training. For the samurai however, the sword was but one of...