Berkeley CSUA MOTD:Entry 11908
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2004/1/23-25 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:11908 Activity:high
1/23    US fought the first Gulf War to help Kuwait defend its sovereignty.
        So how come US can continue to violate Iraq's sovereignty given that
        it has found no evidence of WMD or terrorist activities?
        \_ It's never about sovereignty, son.  The first golf war was to
           prevent Iraq control 36% of world's total oil output.  We never
           cared about Kuwaiti people, nor does the Kuwaiti Royal Family
           for that matter.
           \_ That is just one factor.  The first gulf war is when
              international law, people of Kuwait's interest, and US's
              interest are in alignment.  Unfortunately, in the second
              gulf war, international law is not our our side, and
              whether it's in the US's interest and whether it's in the
              people of Iraq's interest are highly debatable.  It is in
              the Bush admin's interest though.  You have much to learn, boy.
              \_ "international law was not on our side".  since there is no
                 such thing, it is hard to say if it was or not.  there are
                 competing views on this point from reliable people on both
                 sides of this.  The 2nd GW was certainly in the Iraqi people's
                 interests as long as you're not one of the Sunnis who was
                 getting along just fine at the expense of the Shiites and
                 Kurds.  You mave much to learn, son.
                 \_ Why don't you ask Pentagon hawk, Richard Perle, who said:
                    "I think in this case international law stood in the
                    way of doing the right thing."  As for the existence
                    of international laws, try <DEAD>www.un.com<DEAD> -> english ->
                    international laws.  Even Perle understood that there
                    are international laws and the US invasion of Iraq is
                    illegal.  As for whether it is "doing the right
                    thing", it's highly debatable.  You have much to
                    learn, boy.
                    \_ I thought I'd replied to this, but I guess not since it
                       was the same as the rest.  1) Richard Perle doesn't
                       speak for me or anyone else important.  2) As I said
                       every other time you bring up this nonsense, if there
                       is no enforcement there is no law.  And slapping "boy"
                       at the end of your posts doesn't add anything to your
                       case.  You're still naive and ignorant even though you
                       pretend otherwise.  After a dozen times we've gone over
                       this you are still incapable of telling me how those
                       "international laws" get enforced.  Because they don't
                       and can't be.  No enforcement = no law.  I should just
                       save this to a file and paste it back in everytime your
                       silly little ass comes on here with worthless URLs to
                       the UN website.  You never have anything new to say
                       because there's nothing more you can say.  There's no
                       international law.  There are a *lot* of international
                       suggestions, hints, and advice.
                       \_ Well you did reply to it, at least you tried.
                          No, law is law.  Enforcement is enforcement.
                          If say commie China invaded some small country
                          on its border today, it broke international law
                          irregardless of whether anyone dared to send an
                          army to chase it out.  Your silly ass no perfect
                          enforcement means no law argument is bogus.
                          As for slapping "boy", it's just to counter the
                          use of "son". Your protest against my use of
                          "boy" without also mentioning the use of "son"
                          thus exposes you again as the hypocritical
                          silly ass that you are.
                          \_ Nice try at a back handed compliment on line one.
                             I only used 'son' to show you how stupid you look
                             putting "boy" on the end of every one of your
                             cut'n'paste posts.  As far as the actual topic
                             goes: China would not be in violation of anything
                             if they were to invade a neighbor.  Law without
                             any enforcement mechanism is silly.  It's the
                             same idea as when Bush gets attacked for making
                             the "No Child Left Behind" act but not putting
                             any funding into it.  There's no reason to respect
                             a "law" which has no enforcement mechanism.  If
                             you'd like to say "oh boo hoo! the law was broken,
                             woe unto the the earth and all peace loving good
                             peoples!" go right ahead, it doesn't matter what
                             you whine about who 'broke' what pseudo-law when
                             there's nothing anyone can or will do about it,
                             especially when your 'laws' are, at best, just a
                             list of rules countries are supposed to more or
                             less follow BY AGREEMENT, and there's nothing in
                             any of your 'laws' which says what the punishment
                             shall be for a violation.  There's no internatn'l
                             legal system, no police, no judges, no cops, no
                             nothing anyone can or would do to even a second
                             rate nation, such as France, much less to a Hyper
                             Super Power like the U.S.  It's silly and naive to
                             talk about violations like that.  The obvious
                             response is always, "So what?  Go do something
                             about it".  And the fact that no one can, would,
                             or even wants to is what makes International Law
                             and the violation of said myth the farce that it
                             is.
                 \_ the only "competing view" is GW supporters in the US.
                    Everone else in the world knows US broke international
                    law.
        \_ You're right.  We should just walk away and let it fall to total
           anarchy.  Then assholes like you would be here saying "why did
           we leave the poor Iraqis to their fate?  We should have stayed
           and helped them!"  Have a cookie, troll.
           \_ the sad thing is I don't think the poster intended it as a troll
              \_ It is not a troll but a lead to raise additional questions.
                 And yes, you need to think more before feeling sad.
                 \_ okay, so your post was written to raise additional
           \_ [ expression of sadness noted ]
                    questions.  I've thought about it more, and I still think
                    it's sad.  To each their own, I guess.
                    \_ um, whatever
           \_ Assholes like you should learn to stop putting words into
              other people's mouth.
              \_ blah blah blah, heard it all before.  when you hate the man
                 so much it doesn't matter what he does or says you can still
                 put them there.
                 find fault and make him into hitler if you like and feel good
                 about yourself doing so.  the words were there.  no one else
                 put them there.
                 \_ I know you have an irrational hatred for Clinton, so you
                    project that onto others.  You need to grow up.
                       \_ Just tell me one thing: what makes you spill
                          the drivel about hating "the man" when the
                          original poster mentioned nothing about it?  Where
                          did you get the juvenile belief that anyone who
                          questions the Iraq war has to be a hater of
                          Bush?
                          \_ What about those of us who support the Iraq war,
                             but hate Bush for other reasons?
                             \_ It can't be.  If you support the war then
                                you're a fascist (R) and love Bush.  If you
                                hate Bush and the evil fascist (R)s then you
                                are opposed to the war to your core.  There
                                is no middle ground in leftist politics.
                          \_ From reading the motd everyday.  Where'd you get
                             the opposite idea?
                             \_ all the more reason for you to be less
                                presumptuous instead of contributing to
                                the idiocy.
                                \_ Uhm, what?  We're on the motd, so I'm
                                   perfectly in context.
              other people's mouth.
                 put them there.
                 \_ I know you have an irrational hate for Clinton, so you
                 \_ I know you have an irrational hatred for Clinton, so you
                    project that onto others.  You need to grow up.
                    \_ You don't know any such thing.  I have no hatred for
                       Clinton or anyone else.  He's just another scumbag
                       politician no different than the rest.  My original
                       point remains: the poster is a hypocrite and a troll
                       and you've done nothing to refute that in any way.
           \_ So you are saying that any country can invade any other
              country by first making false accusations, then invading,
              and then saying that they have to stay because if they leave,
              since they already destroyed the former regime and its
                 \_ That's the point.  Us broke international law, and
                    the reason for the war turned out to be based on a lie
                    and has to be changed to "regime change".  If WMD or
                    terrorists were found, even if democracy and peace
                    failed, the war would still be justified.  Now, we have
                    20000 Iraqis dead, 500 US soldier killed, thousands of
                    US soldiers injured, hundreds of bilions of dollars
                    spent, thousands of Iraqis homes and property destroyed,
                    and still no WMD.  If we can find WMD or at the very
                    least have a UN mandate, these losses would be
                    justified, but without them, now it boils down to
                    the only justification left - whether we can build a
                    peaceful and democratic Iraq.  All the more reason to
                    put pressure on the administration to do the right
                    thing instead of throwing Iraqi people's money to
                    the admin's business and defense cronies.  Take this
                    Ayatollah Sistani problem.  If WMD has been found, t
                    his would be a much smaller problem, but now that
                    the whole basis of the invasion rests on regime
                    change, and helping the oppressed Shiites, and now
                    you have this Sistani mullah whom all the Shiites
                    seem to adore, and he's ignoring Bremer and
                    calling for direct elections, there is
                    very little one can do except try to placate him.
                    I hope things turned out well, not because of, but
                    in spite of.
                    \_ Not finding WMD doesn't make it any harder to clean
                       up after.  It's still a very difficult thing.  And as
                       far as "justifying" all those deaths, lost homes, and
                       general mayhem in Iraq goes, I don't think the average
                       Iraqi gives a flying fuck about your "justifications".
                       That's Western White Boy think.  If we rolled in and
                       found a ton of anthrax on every street corner those
                       Iraqis would still be dead, injured, homeless, etc, and
                       not at all agree with your "justification" theory and
                       be just as pissed off that we're there.  Sistani would
                       still be there as before and we'd still have the same
                       mess to clean up.  It would just be harder, not easier,
                       because of the resources we'd have to divert to WMD
                       clean up.  You can't justify the loss of family and
                       home to anyone on the receiving end of that loss.
                       You're so fucking colonial it makes me ill.
                       \_ Your fucking underestimation of the people of
                          Iraq makes me sick.  Iraqis can think and they
                          watch and read the news, and they see the Bush
                          admin caught in lies about WMD, constantly
                          change its justification for the war, and
                          inability to find any WMD.  They also read news
                          about how Bush admin gives fat contracts to
                          its cronies led companies using Iraqi money and
                          oil to pay for these.  You think all these make
                          no difference to the Iraqis?  Are you that
                          naive or are you just plain dumb?
                          \_ Who said the Iraqis aren't smart?  I never said
                             any such thing.  Go back and *READ* what I said,
                             not what you wish I'd said.  I'll repeat: the
                             average Iraqi who lost a family member or home or
                             whatever doesn't give a flying fuck if there were
                             WMD or not.  They don't give a flying fuck that
                             Bush is handing contracts to his buddies or not.
                             They don't give a flying fuck about the whether
                             the war was "just" or not.  Those are your
                             Western White Boy concerns.  They only care that
                             their family member is dead, their house blown up,
                             or their business destroyed and no amount of
                             Western justification for the invasion will change
                             that.  If it was your house that got blown up and
                             2 tons of anthrax was found next door the day
                             after you'd still be pissed off your house was
                             blown up no matter how "justified" some white boy
                             in the US thinks it was.
           \_ So you are saying that any country can invade any other
              country by first making false accusations, then invading,
              and then saying that they have to stay because if they leave,
              since they already destroyed the former regime and its
              institutions, there will be chaos?
                    \_ Bush says:  That's a CIA failure.
              institutions, there will be chaos?
              \_ Whatever the quality of the reason for invading, walking out
                 now would be a case of two-wrongs-don't-make-a-right.  If
                 you broke the cookie jar you should at least help buy new
                 cookies and some elmer's glue.  There's no relationship
                 between whether or not invading was right and what we should
                 do now that we have.  The fact is we did invade and now have
                 a moral responsibility to clean up the mess we made.  You
                 seem to think that we only owe the Iraqi people something if
                 we had found tons of WMD.  That makes no sense to me.
              \_ 10 years of Resolutions are false accussations?
                 \_ Where is the WMD then?
                    \_ Bush says:  That's a CIA failure.
                       \_ Are you trying to make him look bad?
                          \_ No, that's the genuine administration position.
                 \_ And if you want to talk about UN resolutions, no, US
                    did not obtain a UN resolution to invade
                    Iraq.  There are many UN resolutions condemning
                    Israel.  That doesn't mean other countries have
                    the right to invade Israel.
                    \_ Bush says:  An earlier resolution made the war legal.
                       \_ Only problem was Bush tried to obtain a UN mandate
                          for war but had to withdraw.  That shows that the
                          earlier resolution doesn't stand.
                          \_ Bush says:  The earlier resolution still made
                             it legal; the new resolution was a chance to
                             show Saddam that the world was united in
                             opposition.
                            \_ earlier resolution says "severe consequences".
                               analogy would be a law that says it is
                               illegal to possess marijuana and anyone
                               found in possession of marijuana would face
                               "legal consequences".  this doesn't give
                               john doe off the street the right to kill
                               someone found in possession of marijuana.
                               To determine what the consequences should be
                               one should go back to the institution issuing
                               the law (UN in this case).
                               \_ the US isn't john doe off the street and
                                  'legal' is not the same as 'severe'.  did
                                  you think the original un resolution that
                                  said 'severe' meant "we'll sic our lawyers
                                        \_ Try http://www.un.org -> English ->
                                           International Laws.  Who enforces
                                           it?  Member nations through UN
                                           mandate of course.  You prefer
                                           throwing away international laws
                                           and going back to genghis khan era?
                                           \_ "member nations through UN
                                               mandate".  bullshit.  So you
                                              claim the US is in violation of
                                              UN/international law.  Why is
                                              there no enforcement?  Why aren't
                                              all the member states enforcing
                                              their will upon the US?  The law
                                              is the law and must be applied
                                              equally to all.  If any are
                                              above the law or there is no
                                              enforcement the law doesn't exist
                                              as such and becomes a mild
                                              suggestion at best.  We're still
                                              in the Khan era.  We never left
                                              it.  When did World Peace
                                              suddenly strike the planet?  What
                                              year did the Age of Enlightenment
                                              begin?
                                              \_ [I knew this one would go
                                                  unanswered.  Score one for
                                                  the "international law is
                                                  bullshit" side]
                                                  \_ No actually I just
                                                     feel that it's so
                                                     stupid it doesn't
                                                     deserve to be answered.
                                                     This guy can't even
                                                     distinguish between
                                                     law and its enforcement.
                                                     See above example
                                                     about scenario where
                                                     commie China invades
                                                     a small country.
                                                     \_ Been there, done that
                                                        and answered it a
                                                        number of times.  You
                                                        just prefer to change
                                                        the words around and
                                                        reply to your own words
                                                        that you put in my
                                                        mouth instead of what
                                                        was there on screen.
                    \_ Bush says:  An earlier resolution made the war legal.
                               one should go back to the institution issuing
                               the law (UN in this case).
                                  you think the original un resolution that
                                  said 'severe' meant "we'll sic our lawyers
                                  said 'severe' meant "we'll sic our lawyers
                                  on you in the international courts!"?
                                  on you in the international courts!"?
                                  \_ it's an UN resolution, so go back to
                                     UN to decide what it means.  otherwise,
                                  on you in the international courts!"?
                                  \_ it's an UN resolution, so go back to
                                     admit that you are breaking international
                                     law.
                                     UN to decide what it means.  otherwise,
                                     admit that you are breaking international
                                     law.
                                     \_ if there was a real thing called
                                        international law then maybe it could
                                        be broken.  if you have to go back and
                                        'ask' 10 years later what was really
                                        meant by something then the whole
                                        process is a farce anyway and it really
                                        doesn't matter.  tell me, who exactly
                                        enforces this 'international law' you
                                        speak so highly of?  where can i go
                                        and read the laws and the consequences
                                        for breaking them?
           \_ Just to stick up for those opposed to the war: not all of us are
              saying get out of Iraq; we merely don't trust the current
              administration to do the right thing while there.  We never
              should have invaded, but we're there and we're stuck for now.
              \_ A fair position.  Question: if Gore was in office, what do
                 you think he would have done post 9/11 with Al Qaeda, Iraq,
                 Afghanistan, Iran, Syria, Libya, Saudi Arabia, Israel, etc?
                 Were you also opposed to what happened in Afghanistan?
                 \_ [ Bad idea. ]
                 \_ I am not the first guy, but I agree with him. We need
                    to clean up what we broke in Iraq. I was in favor of the
                             \_ Either way will do.  The Jews need more
                                living space.
                           the nasty selfperpetuating evil it's mired in now.
                       Now, realistically, how likely are one of these two to
                    invasion of Afghanistan. I think Gore would have invaded
                    Afgahnistan and then called it a day. He probably
                    would have tried to continue the Clinton peace process
                             \_ Nah, despite all the wars and killings,
                                Israel is the peace loving nation, once it
                                has attained its rightful King Solomon era
                                Greater Israel size and thrown all the
                                Palestinians out.  Jews need more living
                                space than present day Israel.
                                \_ not really.  we should just let the arabs
                                   kill them all and then we wouldnt have to
                                   worry about it.
                    in Palestine and Israel, which was making some progress
                    unlike "The Roadmap." -Motd Liberal
                    \_ There is no realistic chance of peace in the Middle
                       East.  Here is how it could happen:
                       (1) Israel is nuked, or otherwise destroyed, and never
                           rises up again.
                       (2) The palestinian society/culture/infrastructure
                           is irrevocably broken and rebuilt again without
                           the nasty selfperpetuating evil it's mired in now.
                       Now, realistically, how likely are one of these two to
                       happen?  What will probably happen is, Israel will wall
                       itself off and try to live as a besieged state.
                       Palestinians will continue to blow themselves up and
                       train their children to do the same, and everyone will
                       go on their merry (?) way.
                       \_ nah, the likely outcome is Israel will bring
                          in more and more settlers, and expand with
                          more and more settlements until it reaches its
                          size during King Solomon's times, and all
                          Palestinians are thrown out of Greater Israel.
                          \_ Possibly but I think it won't happen due to the
                             increase in settlements but yet another Arab
                             inspired war and this time the Israelis will just
                             push them all out and be done with it like they
                             started but wimped out on doing 50+ years ago.
                       \_ Genocide.  The Palestinians want genocide, and
                          eventually they are going to get it.
                          \_ The palestinian nation is a peace loving nation
                             and if only the Jews would just jump in the ocean
                             and all die we could finally have peace in the ME.
                        \_ People once thought the same thing about
                           Ireland.  While things are still somewhat bad
                           there, they do credit Clinton with bringing
                           people closer to compromise.  There can be
                           peace in Israel/Palestine; it just takes the
                           right time, the right man, and the right
                           motivation.  Bush's policies have set back that
                           possibility a great deal.
                           \_ The Ireland situation was different.  You had a
                              different kind of rebel there and it didn't
                              infect the entire Irish culture.  Irish mothers
                              \_ What do you mean it can't be fixed?  If
                                 we can fix Kurds, Shiite and Sunnis in
                                 Iraq, we can fix Jews and Palestinians in
                                 Palestine/Israel.  Just send in the marines,
                                 and force these quarrelsome shemites to learn
                                 to live together peacefully or be shot.
                                 \_ Start shooting arabs then.
                              didn't blow themselves up and leave tapes behind
                              saying they did it because they loved their
                              children.  Nor did they send their children off
                              to blow themselves up in discos and pizza parlors
                              \_ oh boo hoo!  if only we understood and
                                 accepted their differences as a people then
                                 we could all just get along!  The willful
                                 blindness and naivete of some is TRULY
                                 astounding.
                              \_ Eh.  In some sense I don't _care_ what
                                 exactly goes on in their heads.  Do I care why
                                 a serial killer kills?  Why should I care why
                                 a serial killer nation kills?  I just want to
                                 put the serial killer away to pay back his
                                 debt to his victims.  There is no excuse to
                                 be found in palestinians' heads for what they
                                 are doing.  It's simply wrong and evil.
                                 \_ SOrry, guess my statement was unclear.
                                    I was trying to say, the Palestinians
                                    (and most arabs) will simply ignore
                                    overwhelming evidence that contradicts
                                    what they wish to believe.  It's in
                                    the religion.  I should tell the story
                                    about the guy who refused to believe
                                    California is bigger than Azerbaijan.
                                    Basically, people who belive peace is
                                    possiable with those people don't have
                                    any idea what they're talking about.
                                 \_ Yeah those people are inscrutable.
                                    They cannot be understood.  Their thinking
                                    process is alien to us.  They are like
                                    serial killers.  Their culture is evil.
                                    They are not normal humans.  In fact,
                                    they can't even be called humans.  They
                                    are more like rats.  They should be
                                    exterminated.  We should burn
                                    them so normal humans like us Jews can
                                    have more living space.  long live
                                    Greater Israel!
                                    \_ They may very well be understandable.
                                       But they don't deserve to be understood,
                                       much like any serial killer.  The
                                       palestinians have a serial killer
                                       culture.
                                    \_ Pick up an English language arab
                                       newspaper or read them on the net.  Then
                                       come back here and tell us how peaceful
                                       and loving and understanding and how
                                       if only the Jews would just give up a
                                       few more square miles here, and there,
                                       and everywhere, peace would be at hand.
                                       Your ignorance is almost painful but
                                       you do the Berkeley hippy long haired
                                       PC leftist thing really well.  Give
                                       peace a chance!  Think locally, act
                                       globally!  Everyone just wants love!
                                       \_ Well, Israel has never stopped the
                                          continuation of the process. With
                                          settlers and ongoing miserable
                                          conditions in the territories, it's
                                          not credible to say they would always
                                          have been the same way. The ones that
                                          went to Jordan seemed to be able to
                                          lead normal lives. Leaving those
                                          camps there for all those years was
                                          a mistake either way.
                                          \_ Jordan?  Yeah the ones who went to
                                             Jordan lived nice normal lives
                                             after tens of thousands got
                                             butchered on that side of the
                                             border by their fellow Arabs.  If
                                             you don't know the history of the
                                             area you really should take 5-10
                                             minutes to read a summary online
                                             before sharing your opinions here.
                                             The mistake Israel made is they
                                             started to kick out the Arabs 50
                                             years ago but chickened out and
                                             didn't finish the process.  That
                                             left them with a few million
                                             really pissed off Arabs inside
                                             their borders which is the worst
                                             situation possible for all sides.
                                             Israel will eventually either lose
                                             a war or be overwhelmed by it's
                                             internal Arab population and then
                                             be no more.  The only other option
                                             that exists for Israel to survive
                                             beyond the next 20 years is a war
                                             that they win which has to be
                                             started by the Arabs so the
                                             international community types are
                                             appeased which then leads to
                                             them kicking out the 5th column
                                             Arabs inside the borders now.  I
                                             don't see any other paths that
                                             lead to anything other than the
                                             complete destruction of Israel
                                             and genocide inflicted upon the
                                             Jews by the Arabs.  At least maybe
                                             someone will pass a UN resolution
                                             asking them to please stop or
                                             something.  See the Tutsis for
                                             how that turned out.
                                             \_ Why do you believe that the
                                                Israelis have the right to
                                                kick the Arabs out 50 years
                                                ago?  The Arabs didn't kick
                                                the Jews out during the
                                                hundreds years during which
                                                they ruled the region.
                           I never said they had the right.  I said what   _/
                           should have done and that what they did was a huge
                           mistake.  The Arabs are on that land all the way
                           through North Africa and elsewhere because they
                           waged a bloody war of conquest to take it from the
                           previous owners.  I don't see you crying about
                           them.  And yes, the Arabs *did* kick out Jews from
                           all over the ME and took their property as well,
                           but there's a long history of that through the
                           ages, so it must be ok.  They're just Jews.
                           You said they left "a few million really pissed _/
                           off Arabs inside their borders". Well, the only
                           real problems have been from the ones who have
                           have been under occupation in fenced camps, while
                           over time a lot of land grabs and other injustices
                           have been inflicted on them. I say again, it's just
                           not credible to wilfully ignore that and pretend
                           there was no other way to deal with the territories.
                           It was done out of militarily strategic concerns,
                           with an eye to the other Arab states. But that does
                           not mean it was the only option.
                           \_ Fenced camps?  You've never seen the "camps"
                              which btw are supposed to be weapons free as
                              guaranteed by the UN which is supposed to be
                              running them until such time as the people can
                              be found living space in other Arab nations but
                              we know none of that ever happened, including
                              your illusionary fences.  I do agree and said so
                              before that the push was for military/strategic
                              reasons.  There's no crime there.
              saying get out of Iraq; we merely don't trust the current
              administration to do the right thing while there.  We never
              should have invaded, but we're there and we're stuck for now.
              administration to do the right thing while there.  We never
              should have invaded, but we're there and we're stuck for now.
              \_ A fair position.  Question: if Gore was in office, what do
                 you think he would have done post 9/11 with Al Qaeda, Iraq,
                 Afghanistan, Iran, Syria, Libya, Saudi Arabia, Israel, etc?
                 Were you also opposed to what happened in Afghanistan?
                       happen?  What will probably happen is, Israel will wall
                       itself off and try to live as a besieged state.
                       Palestinians will continue to blow themselves up and
                       train their children to do the same, and everyone will
                       go on their merry (?) way.
                       \_ nah, the likely outcome is Israel will bring
                          in more and more settlers, and expand with
                          more and more settlements until it reaches its
                          size during King Solomon's times, and all
                          Palestinians are thrown out of Greater Israel.
                       \_ Genocide.  The Palestinians want genocide, and
                          eventually they are going to get it.
                              in the name of anything and say on TV how proud
                              they are afterwards.  Golda said there won't be
                              peace until palestinian mothers love their
                              children more than they hate jews.  She was
                              right 40 years ago and it's still true today
                              and for the future.  The palestinian 'culture'
                              is just broken.  The few people that were in
                              favor of peace were executed by Arafat as
                              'collaborators' when he came back from exile in
                              Tunis.  Never bargain with terrorists.  Letting
                              Arafat back in and giving him some form of
                              credibility was the worst possible mistake for
                              both Israel and the Palestinians who wanted a
                              nation and a real life and peace.  Not until
                              Afarat is dead and forgotten can anything
                              positive happen.  Bush, Clinton, etc, don't
                              stand a chance.  I find it shocking that you'd
                              say Clinton was making progress when in fact he
                              had already given up long before his term was
                              over.  Bush only got involved because he was
                              pressured into it and wasn't all that serious
                              about it.  This is one of those things we should
                              not bother with until there's a local change of
                              some sort.  It can't be fixed from the outside
                              and it is sheer American ignorance and arrogance
                              in the best colonial sense that says otherwise.
                           \_ It's amazing how so many people claim to
                              "understand" the minds of the palestinians,
                              when the really have no idea.  The willful
                              ignorance ALONE is astounding.
                              \_ oh boo hoo!  if only we understood and
                                 accepted their differences as a people then
                                 we could all just get along!  The willful
                                 blindness and naivete of some is TRULY
                                 astounding.
                              \_ Eh.  In some sense I don't _care_ what
                                 exactly goes on in their heads.  Do I care why
                                 a serial killer kills?  Why should I care why
                                 a serial killer nation kills?  I just want to
                                 put the serial killer away to pay back his
                                 debt to his victims.  There is no excuse to
                                 be found in palestinians' heads for what they
                                 are doing.  It's simply wrong and evil.
                                 \_ SOrry, guess my statement was unclear.
                                    I was trying to say, the Palestinians
                                    (and most arabs) will simply ignore
                                    overwhelming evidence that contradicts
                                    what they wish to believe.  It's in
                                    the religion.  I should tell the story
                                    about the guy who refused to believe
                                    California is bigger than Azerbaijan.
                                    Basically, people who belive peace is
                                    possiable with those people don't have
                                    any idea what they're talking about.
2025/07/09 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
7/9     

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