1/21    "Dictionaries are opinion, disguised as fact, in alphabetical order."
        -- A wise man
        \_ Maybe I haven't been following the news, or am just one of the
           many unelightened allued to below, but what does this quote
           have to do with forms of government?
        \_ Look, you have to pick.  If you don't like democracy, like me,
           you should be busy thinking of a better form of government, since
           it's a larger problem than gay rights (no offense to homosexual
           americans).  If you do like democracy, you should learn to bow to
           the opinions of the majority in political matters. -- ilyas
           \_ Just do it like th greeks.  Land owners and people who have a
              reason to give a shit about society get to vote.  All the teat
              sucking proles continue on as before and maybe their offspring
              will do better than they did in life.
              \_ Plato called democracy the second worst form of government
                 (after tyranny).  I agree with him.  The problem with any
                 form of democracy is that masses of people, land-owners or
                 not, do not make good decisions. -- ilyas
                 \_ So what about a republic, which is the form of
                    government we have.  Wasn't Plato speaking of
                    direct democracy?  I agree with you that
                    direct democracy is horrible (look at CA's
                    initiative system), but I disagree with you
                    about republics.
                    \_ Introducing layers of indirection does not address the
                       basic problem.  I don't really know what the answer is,
                       and neither did Plato.  Plato wanted some sort of
                       enlightened monarchy, but he couldn't solve the throne
                       inheritance problem. -- ilyas
                \_ "Do not make good decisions"? that's a bit much isn't it?
                   surely they sometimes do, sometimes don't. there are a lot
                   of factors that can affect the quality of the democracy.
                   How much incentive is there for the "good" decision-makers
                   to be in politics? Also, in this country, political parties
                   have become a joke due to the 2 party dominance. If we
                   had proportional representation, real parties and coalitions,
                   and something like instant runoff voting, I think we would
                   get government that is more representative of society. I also
                   think more power should rest with the more locally elected
                   people, instead of governors, senators and presidents who
                   have become television actors. I believe that the federal
                   government has gained a lot more power than the founders
                   envisioned.
                   \_ Sure, even a stopped clock is right twice a day.  And
                      you are also right in that there are factors affecting
                      the quality of a democracy.  Nevertheless, I can't help
                      but feel that there is something fundamentally wrong
                      with democracy itself. -- ilyas
                      \_ The PRC is probably the closest alternative, where
                         you have a ruling elite who select each leader
                         in turn, and control accession to their group. But
                         anything other than democracy requires crushing
                         freedoms to maintain control, and will be prone to
                         a lot of inherent corruption.
                         \_ I am not sure you are right, which is why I am
                            still thinking about it.  To use Plato's analogy
                            of the State as the soul, there are more kinds of
                            souls than those of serial killers and
                            schizophrenics.  -- ilyas
                            \_ What's your metric of a better government?
                               Happiness of people, national power...?
                               \_ I don't really know the answer since if I
                                  did I would have a better idea of what
                                  kind of government is best.  I do know that
                                  a prerequisite for the kind of government
                                  that doesn't make me cringe is some sort of
                                  universal morality.  Without this, it's just
                                  competing warlords with perhaps a civil
                                  veneer (or perhaps not...). -- ilyas
            \_ SERVICE guarantees CITIZENSHIP!
        \_ Enlightened beings rule themselves.  They dont need a government
           to rule over them.  We earthlings, however, are not very enlightened
           most of the time.
           \_ you mean most of us don't think like you?