1/20    What do you liberals think of the following:  a big chunk of the state
        budget is in pension funds for gov't employees.  How about we stop
        new enrollment in these state run funds for new govt employees and
        offer 401K plan instead?  Also give incentives for current employees
        to convert to 401K.  The idea is to scale back govt run programs.
        Empower each individual to think about his/her own retirement and let
        them manage their own retirement money instead of asking the govt
        to take care of this.  We can grandfather the program and keep
        everything the same for current employees to keep them happy. But the
        new teachers or prison guards or other civil service workers will
        only have 401K instead.  "Ask not what your country can do for you,
        but what you can do for your country."
        \_ Out of curiousity, can anyone speak to the tax incentives for a
           business for setting up a pension fund versus a matching 401k?
           Or give me a pointer for where I might read up on this.  I've
           been curious about the widespread disappearance of pensions.
           -scotsmaan
        \_ Imagine it was this:  "A big chunk of the company budget is in the
           pension plan.  How about we stop offering a pension and in stead
           offer them a 401K.  Also encourage everyone in the pension to convert
           to a 401K.  The idea is to get the pension plan off the books."
           I guess I don't know how I feel about this.  What kind of
           'encouragement' will you give current and former employees to switch?
           The fact that the state, as an employer runs a pension for its
           employees doesn't really seem overly socialist, just standard
           business practice.
           \_ Imagine?  Those of us with jobs don't have to imagine.  What
              universe do you work in where people still get pensions?  Most of
              us don't even get 401k matching.  And more importantly, how do I
              get a ticket to your universe??  Why should government employees
              get special benefits the working stiffs don't?  Imagine that.
              The obvious method of conversion is offering 401k matching.  It
              is what the rest of us get (if we're lucky).  Pensions are not
              standard business practice anymore.  Not for a long time.
              \_ that's because "standard business practice" is "fuck the
                 employees"
           The fact that the state, as an employer
              \_ Get a better job. My mom's company has both a pension and
                 a 401(k) (which they match 6%). My gf's company has both
                 a pension and a 403(b) (but no matching). Neither work
                 for the government in any way, shape, or form.
              \_ Many govt. employees (like myself) are paid much less than
                 private sector salaries, live in constant fear of being laid
                 off due to the current fiscal crises, never get bonuses or
                 stock options, and do not get raises when there's a deficit.
                 It's quite a trade-off.
                      \- you dont have a 403b? i dont think the working
                         conditions at say the port of oakland is the same
                         at say lbl or ucb. --psb
                 \_ You think people out here don't have the same fears?  Our
                    fears are much much much greater than yours.  There have
                    been *millions* of jobs lost in the last few years alone
                    in industry.  How many government jobs in the same time?
                    Industry jobs can even go poof during good times.  And
                    I've yet to receive a single penny of bonuses, an option
                    worth more than the paper it was on, and it's been a long
                    time since anyone has seen a raise.  You get raises in
                    good times, eh?  Most of us only get raises by quitting
                    and finding a new job.  I've done government work.  You
                    basically don't.  I have very little sympathy.
        \_ If you're looking for ways to solve the current budget crisis, how
           about demanding the billions owed to us by the energy industry?
           \_ It's in court.