| WIKI | FAQ | Tech FAQ | |
 http://csua.com/feed/ | |
| ||||||
| 12/25 |
| 2004/1/12 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:11756 Activity:high |
1/11 In Los Angeles, 95 percent of all outstanding
warrants for homicide (which total 1,200 to 1,500)
target illegal aliens. Up to two-thirds of all fugitive
felony warrants (17,000) are for illegal aliens.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1056310/posts
\_ Hmm... which is more likely?
A) Illegal aliens commit 95% of murders
B) Illegal aliens are much more likely to run away or hide.
\_ While I agree with you, please don't edit my response.
\_ I'm sorry. Let me fix that:
\_ I think you may have intended to append "...if suspected,
\_ I think may have intended to append "...if suspected,
regardless of actual guilt" to option B.
\_ Of course they're more likely to run away or hide. It's easier
for them to commit crimes and disappear. This is good how?
\_ Well, if they could get drivers licenses, health care, submit
W-2s and all the miscellany that most people have, it would be
\_ Those "most people" are citizens, son. This is a country
and a nation, not a free travel zone opened to the world.
Onlt the US and third world nations have such porous
borders. The third world has an excuse.
a lot easier to track them down.
\_ Or we could just enforce our existing immigration laws.
\_ But it's impossible to seal the borders totally. People
\_ Just because it is hard or not economically feasible
to do something at 100% is not in any way a good
reason to not put in the 99% effort. For example,
it is *extremely* expensive to run a 100% uptime
network of servers but you can run a 99.999% uptime
system for something most mid- and some small-sized
companies can afford. The only 100% system I've
ever seen was in a *very* high end government lab
and cost the tax payers hundreds of millions to
build and maintain.
\_ You must be using some technical definition of '100%'
I am not familiar with. Nothing can be fully reliable,
as you well know, regardless of how much money you
spend on it.
will get in, so we might as well know they exist.
\_ And what happens when they obtain 5 or 6 pieces
of indentification, like they do now?
\_ And as soon as we know they exist, we deport them.
Legal immigration rates should probably be increased,
but illegal immigration should not be tolerated.
\_ See, this is why I can't understand the Right's
opposition to driver's licences for illegal
aliens: once they're registered, you'll know
right away where they are and whether you can
deport them. The beauty of the system is that
\_ "and whether you can deport them": if they're
here illegally they can be deported.
the aliens themselves will come to you!
\_ I think the idea is that illegals can get a
drivers license and not be deported just based
on that. They can be deported if found out by
other means though. The upside for the state
is that illegals are at least subject to the
\_ Why would an illegal bother? They're
getting along just fine right now without
being 'on the books'. I wonder how many of
you actually know any illegals and I don't
mean the anonymous faces that you see doing
gardening or construction.
\_ 1) Under the mistaken impression that
they won't be deported the next time
they're pulled over, and 2) thanks for
the non-sequitur.
\_ http://www.streetgangs.com/topics/2003/112103hoodlums.html
requirements of licensing and insurance.
\_ Why do we need immigration at all any more? Are we really running
low on people? -ax
\_ We're low on people who will do crappy jobs for minimum wage.
Also, it's a fairness issue, unless your parents are both Native
\_ Fairness? Please explain. I was going to go off on you but
maybe you're not saying wha t think you're saying so I'll
reserve judgement for now.
\_ End welfare and people will work.
\_ Those damn 5 year olds on AFDC, why won't they get a job!
\_ That coal isn't going to mine itself, you know!
\_ Why should the parents be allowed to have 10 children
while on welfare?
\_ What are the alrernatives? Deny welfare to a woman
with 10 children and probably no marketable skills,
forced abortion, forced sterilization. None of these
seem reasonable.
\_ You seem oblivious to how government handouts
work. When you give people free money or
healthcare the take all they can and will
act in a way to maximize their return.
\_ I'm not at all oblivious. I know all about
incentives and market forces. I'm a former
Libertarian. I'm saying you can't pull the
rug out from under people without causing big
problems.
\_ Libertarian turned statist? Admit it you
want someone to take care of you. You
want cradle to grave protection by some
faceless bureaucrat.
You don't have the ability to make your
own decisions and live with the
consequences.
\_ And therein lies the paradox: California agribusiness is built
on the labor of people who are criminally underpaid; they
continue to be criminally underpaid because they have no legal
status and will be deported if they complain or try to organize,
but the institution of employing them remains because if all
illegal aliens were deported, agribusiness would be forced to
pay minimum wage to American workers and that would bankrupt
California agribusiness. The parallels between the current
labor situation in California and the pre-Civil War agricultural
economy of the South are striking.
\_ The cost breakdown in agriculture is ~ 10% labor.
\_ The margins are tiny though.
\_ And what would that be if ag was paying $6.75 per hour?
but illegal immigration should not be tolerated.
Americans. |
| 12/25 |
|
| www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1056310/posts The Illegal-Alien Crime Wave City Journal / The Manhattan Institute Winter 2004 Heather Mac Donald Posted on 01/12/2004 8:41:26 AM PST by Federalist 78 Some of the most violent criminals at large today are illegal aliens. Yet in cities where the crime these aliens commit is highest, the police cannot use the most obvious tool to apprehend them: their immigration status. In Los Angeles, for example, dozens of members of a ruthless Salvadoran prison gang have sneaked back into town after having been deported for such crimes as murder, assault with a deadly weapon, and drug trafficking. Police officers know who they are and know that their mere presence in the country is a felony. Yet should a cop arrest an illegal gangbanger for felonious reentry, it is he who will be treated as a criminal, for violating the LAPDs rule against enforcing immigration law . The LAPDs ban on immigration enforcement mirrors bans in immigrant-saturated cities around the country, from New York and Chicago to San Diego, Austin, and Houston. These sanctuary policies generally prohibit city employees, including the cops, from reporting immigration violations to federal authorities. Such laws testify to the sheer political power of immigrant lobbies , a power so irresistible that police officials shrink from even mentioning the illegal-alien crime wave. Another LAPD commander in a predominantly Hispanic, gang-infested district sighs: I would get a firestorm of criticism if I talked about enforcing the immigration law against illegals. But however pernicious in themselves, sanctuary rules are a symptom of a much broader disease: the nations near-total loss of control over immigration policy. Fifty years ago, immigration policy might have driven immigration numbers, but today the numbers drive policy. The nonstop increase of immigration is reshaping the language and the law to dissolve any distinction between legal and illegal aliens and, ultimately, the very idea of national borders. It is a measure of how topsy-turvy the immigration environment has become that to ask police officials about the illegal-alien crime problem feels like a gross faux pas, not done in polite company. And a police official asked to violate this powerful taboo will give a strangled responseor, as in the case of a New York deputy commissioner, break off communication altogether. Meanwhile, millions of illegal aliens work, shop, travel, and commit crimes in plain view, utterly secure in their de facto immunity from the immigration law. I asked the Miami Police Departments spokesman, Detective Delrish Moss, about his employers policy on lawbreaking illegals. In September, the force arrested a Honduran visa violator for seven vicious rapes . The previous year, Miami cops had had the suspect in custody for lewd and lascivious molestation, without checking his immigration status. Had they done so, they would have discovered his visa overstay, a deportable offense, and so could have forestalled the rapes. We have shied away from unnecessary involvement dealing with immigration issues, explains Moss, choosing his words carefully, because of our large immigrant population. Police commanders may not want to discuss, much less respond to, the illegal-alien crisis, but its magnitude for law enforcement is startling. In Los Angeles, 95 percent of all outstanding warrants for homicide which total 1,200 to 1,500 target illegal aliens. Pick up a law-violator for a minor crime, and you might well prevent a major crime: enforcing graffiti and turnstile-jumping laws nabs you murderers and robbers. Enforcing known immigration violations, such as reentry following deportation, against known felons, would be even more productive. LAPD officers recognize illegal deported gang members all the timeflashing gang signs at court hearings for rival gangbangers, hanging out on the corner, or casing a target. These illegal returnees are, simply by being in the country after deportation, committing a felony in contrast to garden-variety illegals on their first trip to the United States, say, who are only committing a misdemeanor. But if I see a deportee from the Mara Salvatrucha Salvadoran prison gang crossing the street, I know I cant touch him, laments a Los Angeles gang officer. Only if the deported felon has given the officer some other reason to stop him, such as an observed narcotics sale, can the cop accost himbut not for the immigration felony. Though such a policy puts the community at risk, the departments top brass brush off such concerns. No big deal if you see deported gangbangers back on the streets, they say. Just put them under surveillance for real crimes and arrest them for those. Where there is an immediate ground for getting a violent felon off the street and for questioning him further, it is absurd to demand that the woefully understaffed LAPD ignore it. There has never been any empirical verification that sanctuary laws actually accomplish these goalsand no one has ever suggested not enforcing drug laws, say, for fear of intimidating drug-using crime victims. But in any case, this official rationale could be honored by limiting police use of immigration laws to some subset of immigration violators: deported felons, say, or repeat criminal offenders whose immigration status police already know. The real reason cities prohibit their cops and other employees from immigration reporting and enforcement is, like nearly everything else in immigration policy, the numbers. The immigrant population has grown so large that public officials are terrified of alienating it, even at the expense of ignoring the law and tolerating violence . In 1996, a breathtaking Los Angeles Times expos on the 18th Street Gang, which included descriptions of innocent bystanders being murdered by laughing cholos gang members, revealed the rate of illegal-alien membership in the gang. In response to the public outcry, the Los Angeles City Council ordered the police to reexamine Special Order 40. A police commander warned the council: This is going to open a significant, heated debate. City Councilwoman Laura Chick put on a brave front: We mustnt be afraid, she declared firmly. Law-abiding residents of gang-infested neighborhoods may live in terror of the tattooed gangbangers dealing drugs, spraying graffiti, and shooting up rivals outside their homes, but such anxiety can never equal a politicians fear of offending Hispanics. At the start of the reexamination process, LAPD deputy chief John White had argued that allowing the department to work closely with the INS would give cops another tool for getting gang members off the streets. Trying to build a homicide case, say, against an illegal gang member is often futile, he explained, since witnesses fear deadly retaliation if they cooperate with the police. Enforcing an immigration violation would allow the cops to lock up the murderer right now, without putting a witnesss life at risk. But six months later, Deputy Chief White had changed his tune: Any broadening of the policy gets us into the immigration business, he asserted. Its a federal law-enforcement issue, not a local law-enforcement issue . Interim police chief Bayan Lewis told the LA Police Commission: It is not the time. Nor will it ever be, as long as immigration numbers continue to grow. After their brief moment of truth in 1996, Los Angeles politicians have only grown more adamant in defense of Special Order 40. After learning that cops in the scandal-plagued Rampart Division had cooperated with the INS to try to uproot murderous gang members from the community, local politicians threw a fit, criticizing district commanders for even allowing INS agents into their station houses. By now, big-city police chiefs are unfortunately just as determined to defend sanctuary policies as the politicians who appoint them; The INS, he claimed, with what turned out to be grotesque irony, only aims to terrorize people. On September 5, 2001, his handpicked charter-revision committee ruled that New York could still require that its employees keep immigration information confidential to preserve trust between immigrants and government .... |
| www.streetgangs.com/topics/2003/112103hoodlums.html But if the city is ever going to defeat the gang culture that terrorizes its neighborhoods, its going to need to start using every weapon at its disposal. No, that doesnt mean bringing back the bad old days of immigration sweeps, of LA cops playing Immigration and Naturalization Service and harassing immigrant communities throughout the city. Its those horrors that made immigrants reluctant to deal with the police, compromising public safety for everyone and resulting in Special Order 40 in the first place. But for all the abuses of those days, there are corresponding lapses in tough policing today. Known gang members who are illegal immigrants walk the citys streets because cops lack the goods to put them away, even though cops could expel at least some of the gangsters from the country in an instant, simply by enforcing federal immigration laws that are already on the books. There needs to be a reasonable, common-sense approach to dealing with illegal immigrants who are also violent criminals, drug dealers and the like. While LA must never go back to the dark days of immigration sweeps, it cannot continue to operate under the blindness of Special Order 40 that lets thugs roam free and puts everyone especially members of immigrant communities at risk. A sensible place would be to submit the names of those listed on citywide gang injunctions known members of gangs engaging in criminal activity to the INS to verify their immigration status. Those who are here illegally could be deported, making the streets safer for all, without infringing on anyones civil liberties. Such a strategy is a natural fit for Police Chief William Brattons broken windows approach to policing. A key component of the theory is using minor offenses in New York, Brattons cops went after subway turnstile-jumpers to find serious offenders, such as parole violators or people carrying illegal weapons. And its also in keeping with City Halls long-standing promise to use every possible means, such as gang injunctions, to go after the citys street terrorists. Neither anachronistic policies nor political correctness should keep the LAPD from doing all it can to keep Los Angeles safe. Nonetheless, city leaders are skittish about touching the sacred cow that is Special Order 40. Immigration is a federal issue, a federal responsibility, says City Councilman Dennis Zine, a former cop, and hes right. But fighting gangs is a city responsibility, and where federal policy and city policing overlap, Washington and City Hall must work together. Yet originally, it was supposed to make the LAPD more effective, and to the extent that it keeps the city from fighting gangs, its now having precisely the opposite effect. Its time to revisit the policy so Special Order 40 stops serving gangs, and starts serving the public. |