Berkeley CSUA MOTD:Entry 11477
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2025/05/24 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
5/24    

2003/12/16-17 [Politics/Domestic, Politics/Foreign] UID:11477 Activity:kinda low
12/16   Silly question maybe, but what's the difference between "people"
        and "persons"? A quick google didn't seem to help. Thanks.
        \_ "people" is a real word.  "persons" is some twisted thing used by
           paper pushing govnerment types starting in the mid 90s in an attempt
           to make their crap sound more professional.  real people don't use
           the word persons in everyday conversation or writing.  it's
           dehumanising.
           \_ actually, if you look in the OED, persons has been used for at
              least 500 years. persons is the proper plural form of person,
              but a secondary sense of people is persons, so that is acceptable
              as well. if you want to be formal and precise, it is "persons"
              though.
              \_ e.g. "You persons can go fuck yourself" is very formal.
           \_ I agree.
           \_ persons is a good new word.  people has too many meanings or
              shades of meaning, and it can be ambiguous which one is being
              used.  My guess would be that it started not with government
              types but legal types.
              \_ Once again, you all need to read this essay:
                 George Orwell, "Politics and the English Language"
                 http://www.resort.com/~prime8/Orwell/patee.html
                 \- while i am a fan of this article, i think Orwell's
                    complaint would be more with say using "individuals"
                    instead of "people". let me call some of my people
                    about the person/people distinction. --psb
                    \- hmm, it looks like "recently" persons was weakly
                       for a specific number [the 12 persons on the jury]
                       but people was for a vague number [many people in
                       the court room], but it is acknowledged "persons"
                       is giving way to "people". however there are some
                       contexts where persons still seems right ...
                       "persons under 17 will not be admitted without
                       supervision". --psb
                       \_ thank you psb!  I knew the "people good" "persons
                          bad" guy was wrong.  - a once-in-a-while psb fan
2025/05/24 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
5/24    

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Cache (8192 bytes)
www.resort.com/~prime8/Orwell/patee.html -> www.resort.com/%7Eprime8/Orwell/patee.html
Orwell: Politics and the English Language Politics and the English Language 1946 M ost people who bother with the matter at all would admit that the English language is in a bad way, but it is generally assumed that we cannot by conscious action do anything about it. Our civilization is decadent and our language - so the argument runs - must inevitably share in the general collapse. It follows that any struggle against the abuse of language is a sentimental archaism, like preferring candles to electric light or hansom cabs to aeroplanes. Underneath this lies the half-conscious belief that language is a natural growth and not an instrument which we shape for our own purposes. Now, it is clear that the decline of a language must ultimately have political and economic causes: it is not due simply to the bad influence of this or that individual writer. But an effect can become a cause, reinforcing the original cause and producing the same effect in an intensified form, and so on indefinitely. A man may take to drink because he feels himself to be a failure, and then fail all the more completely because he drinks. It is rather the same thing that is happening to the English language. It becomes ugly and inaccurate because our thoughts are foolish, but the slovenliness of our language makes it easier for us to have foolish thoughts. Modern English, especially written English, is full of bad habits which spread by imitation and which can be avoided if one is willing to take the necessary trouble. If one gets rid of these habits one can think more clearly, and to think clearly is a necessary first step toward political regeneration: so that the fight against bad English is not frivolous and is not the exclusive concern of professional writers. I will come back to this presently, and I hope that by that time the meaning of what I have said here will have become clearer. Meanwhile, here are five specimens of the English language as it is now habitually written. These five passages have not been picked out because they are especially bad - I could have quoted far worse if I had chosen - but because they illustrate various of the mental vices from which we now suffer. They are a little below the average, but are fairly representative examples. Professor Harold Laski Essay in Freedom of Expression Above all, we cannot play ducks and drakes with a native battery of idioms which prescribes egregious collocations of vocables as the Basic put up with for tolerate , or put at a loss for bewilder . Professor Lancelot Hogben Interglossia On the one side we have the free personality: by definition it is not neurotic, for it has neither conflict nor dream. Its desires, such as they are, are transparent, for they are just what institutional approval keeps in the forefront of consciousness; It is often easier to make up words of this kind deregionalize, impermissible, extramarital, non-fragmentary and so forth than to think up the English words that will cover ones meaning. The result, in general, is an increase in slovenliness and vagueness. In certain kinds of writing, particularly in art criticism and literary criticism, it is normal to come across long passages which are almost completely lacking in meaning. Words like romantic, plastic, values, human, dead, sentimental, natural, vitality , as used in art criticism, are strictly meaningless, in the sense that they not only do not point to any discoverable object, but are hardly ever expected to do so by the reader. Xs work is its living quality, while another writes, The immediately striking thing about Mr. Xs work is its peculiar deadness, the reader accepts this as a simple difference opinion. If words like black and white were involved, instead of the jargon words dead and living , he would see at once that language was being used in an improper way. The word Fascism has now no meaning except in so far as it signifies something not desirable. The words democracy, socialism, freedom, patriotic, realistic, justice have each of them several different meanings which cannot be reconciled with one another. In the case of a word like democracy , not only is there no agreed definition, but the attempt to make one is resisted from all sides. It is almost universally felt that when we call a country democratic we are praising it: consequently the defenders of every kind of regime claim that it is a democracy, and fear that they might have to stop using that word if it were tied down to any one meaning. That is, the person who uses them has his own private definition, but allows his hearer to think he means something quite different. Statements like Marshal Petain was a true patriot, The Soviet press is the freest in the world, The Catholic Church is opposed to persecution, are almost always made with intent to deceive. Other words used in variable meanings, in most cases more or less dishonestly, are: class, totalitarian, science, progressive, reactionary, bourgeois, equality . Now that I have made this catalogue of swindles and perversions, let me give another example of the kind of writing that they lead to. I am going to translate a passage of good English into modern English of the worst sort. Here is a well-known verse from Ecclesiastes : I returned and saw under the sun, that the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, neither yet bread to the wise, nor yet riches to men of understanding, nor yet favour to men of skill; Here it is in modern English: Objective considerations of contemporary phenomena compel the conclusion that success or failure in competitive activities exhibits no tendency to be commensurate with innate capacity, but that a considerable element of the unpredictable must invariably be taken into account. Exhibit 3 above, for instance, contains several patches of the same kind of English. The beginning and ending of the sentence follow the original meaning fairly closely, but in the middle the concrete illustrations - race, battle, bread - dissolve into the vague phrases success or failure in competitive activities. This had to be so, because no modern writer of the kind I am discussing - no one capable of using phrases like objective considerations of contemporary phenomena - would ever tabulate his thoughts in that precise and detailed way. The first contains forty-nine words but only sixty syllables, and all its words are those of everyday life. The second contains thirty-eight words of ninety syllables: eighteen of those words are from Latin roots, and one from Greek. The first sentence contains six vivid images, and only one phrase time and chance that could be called vague. The second contains not a single fresh, arresting phrase, and in spite of its ninety syllables it gives only a shortened version of the meaning contained in the first. Yet without a doubt it is the second kind of sentence that is gaining ground in modern English. This kind of writing is not yet universal, and outcrops of simplicity will occur here and there in the worst-written page. Still, if you or I were told to write a few lines on the uncertainty of human fortunes, we should probably come much nearer to my imaginary sentence than to the one from Ecclesiastes . As I have tried to show, modern writing at its worst does not consist in picking out words for the sake of their meaning and inventing images in order to make the meaning clearer. It consists in gumming together long strips of words which have already been set in order by someone else, and making the results presentable by sheer humbug. It is easier - even quicker, once you have the habit - to say In my opinion it is not an unjustifiable assumption that than to say I think . If you use ready-made phrases, you not only dont have to hunt about for the words; In 4, the writer knows more or less what he wants to say, but an accumulation of stale phrases chokes him like tea leaves blocking a sink. People who write in this manner usually have a general emotional meaning - they dislike one thing and want to express solidarity with another - but they are not interested in the detail of what they are saying. A scrupulous writer, in every sentenc...