Berkeley CSUA MOTD:Entry 11456
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2022/06/30 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
6/30    

2003/12/15 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:11456 Activity:kinda low
12/14   We wage war under the ground of WMD.  What happened if Iraq really
        didn't have WMD?  Under what ground we should try Saddam?  defending
        his homeland?
        \_ "we" aren't, the Iraqis are.
           http://www.nytimes.com/2003/12/15/politics/15PRIS.html
        \_ I think we can ask the relatives of the 300K dead in mass graves
           \_ guess what, not all of the mass grave were produced in reigm
              of Saddam.  Some of these mass grave were dated back to the
              fall of Ottoman Empire.
              \_ oh well that makes it ok then. might as well forget about
                 the attempted invasions of iran and kuwait also, and let this
                 swell fellow go.
                 \_ Didn't we support the invasion of Iran?
                    \_ The coldwar was about the lesser of two evils.
                       \_ Bwahahahahahahahaha!  I damn near peed myself
                          laughing at this.  Nice.
                           \_ 100+ million killed
                              20TH CENTURY DEMOCIDE
                              http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/20TH.HTM
                              Long live MARX!!!
                              \_ If you study these figures, you realize that
                                 this guy comes up with some truly absurd
                                 numbers. He claims that the US killed 6000
                                 civilians during our entire 11 year war in
                                 Vietnam, including all civilians killed by
                                 bombings. This is just not believable. He
                                 plays all sorts of other tricks with numbers
                                 too, like claiming that all the Russians and
                                 Ukranians who died of starvation during WWII
                                 are the responsibility of Stalin.
                                  \_ Most of Stalin's purges occurred before
                                     WWII.  He gives a detailed explanation
                                     of the numbers in Vietnam.
                       \_ Is it really about the cold war?  If so, how
                          come Iraq's tanks were all Soviet?  I think
                          it's more about US supporting the despotic
                          Shah to control oil in Iran, only to see him
                          overthrown by mullahs, so US use Saddam and
                          his chemical weapons against Iran.
                            \_ Iran has been a monarchy for 2000 years; the
                               Shah was the royal successor.  His deposal,
                               thanks in a large part to Carter and Congr.
                               Dems was the inaguaration of militant Islam.
                               Neither NATO nor the Warsaw Pack wanted a
                               clear victor Iran-Iraq war; better to let the
                               Muslim fanatics kill themselves off.  In
                               restrospect the only mistake was that
                               they didn't kill enough of eachother.
                               \_ The fact remains. Iraq invaded Iran,
                                  (just like Iraq invaded Kuwait) not
                                  the other way around, and US
                                  supported Iraq, helping Saddam in
                                  multiple ways, including chemical
                                  weapons.
                                    \_ The justification of tacit Western
                                       support was militant Islam.  Based
                                       on what has transpired since it
                                       was completely justified.  The
                                       US did not give Iraq chemical
                                       weapons, although transfers of
                                       chemical and biological agents
                                       were made from US universities.
                                       Furthermore, the US did not
                                       provide military hardware to
                                       Iraq.  Even today Iraqs military
                                       orignates from France, Russia,
                                       China, etc... there is no US
                                       hardware whatsoever.  Iran
                                       also used chemical weapons, BTW.
                                       \_ Besides assistance with chemical
                                          weapons, US provided military
                                          intelligence, logistics, food
                                          credits (which Saddam easily turned
                                          into money to buy weapons), and
                                          encouraged allies to sell
                                          weapons to Iraq.  Iraq is the
                                          one who started using chemical
                                          weapons.  US itself also left
                                          all options open if attacked by
                                          WMD, so Iran's response is
                                          consistent with US policy.
                                          US also impose sanctions (all
                                          forms) against Iran during the
                                          Iran-Iraq war, which is started
                                          by Saddam, leading to 1 million
                                          dead.  US also sold Iraq 1
                                          billion $US worth of trucks,
                                          and changed the description on
                                          the export licenses from
                                          'vehicles designed for military
                                          use' to 'commercial utility
                                          cargo trucks'.  US also allowed
                                          Indonesia to sell attack
                                          helicopters to Iraq (made by
                                          US of course), cluster bombs
                                          from South Africa and howitzers
                                          from Austria.
                                           \_ And what is your point?
                                              This is common knowledge..
                                              I think we should have let
                                              them overrun the Iranian
                                              mullahs.
                                              \_ We tried, but failed,
                                                 and then it blew up in
                                                 our face.
                                                \_ Hindsight is 20/20, there
                                                   was insufficient political
                                                   capital to do much else.
                                                   In the end the Soviets
                                                   were defeated.
                                                  \_ Like I said, it has
                                                     very little to do with
                                                     the Soviets.  It's
                                                     about our control of
                                                     oil in the region.
                                                     That's why we are
                                                     still there long after
                                                     the demise of the SU.
                                                     \_ Oh my god you
                                                        think its about
                                                        oil NO WAY not
                                                        not in a million
                                                        years.  LOL it
                                                        doesn't take a
                                                        genius to realize
                                                        we would have
                                                        extricated ourselves
                                                        long ago if not for
                                                        the oil.  Guess what,
                                                        every country on the
                                                        face of the earth
                                                        wants to use oil,
                                                        including China,
                                                        Russia and France.
                          come Iraq's tanks were all Soviet?
        \_ Look, I am about as anti-war as they come, and even I can see that
           this is a pathetic attempt at a troll. I think we should just hand
           him over to the Kurds and them do what they will.
2022/06/30 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
6/30    

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www.nytimes.com/2003/12/15/politics/15PRIS.html
By NEIL A LEWIS (NYT) 983 words Late Edition - Final , Section A , Page 16 , Column 5 DISPLAYING FIRST 50 OF 983 WORDS - After United States officials finish interrogating Saddam Hussein, he is expected to become the principal defendant before a special Iraqi-led criminal tribunal that was formally established only last week, Iraqi and American officials said ... Since the conclusion of major combat in the Iraq war, Bush administration officials have consistently... Please Note: Archive articles do not include photos, charts or graphics. To read the complete article, simply click on one of the BUY NOW buttons below. You can buy this single article or, for even greater value, you can purchase this article as part of a multi-pack. You'll then have the opportunity to buy additional articles now or in the future at significant savings! Article Archive: 1996-Present multi-packs are not valid for use with Article Archive: 1851-1995 multi-packs and vice versa. How multi-packs work: A multi-pack is an archive package that saves you money by allowing you to pre-purchase a set number of articles in bulk at a reduced price. You can then debit from your multi-pack and quickly access articles from the archive at your convenience over the lifetime of the multi-pack. Please Note: Article Archive 1996-Present multi-packs are not valid for use with Article Archive: 1851-1995 multi-packs and vice versa. Once you purchase an article, you may view it as often as you like over the next 90 days.
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www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/20TH.HTM
CENTURY DEMOCIDE Nearly 170 million people probably have been murdered by governments in the 20th Century, 1900-1987; What are the statistics of this global bloodbath and what governments have done this? What about the United States? CONTENTS Definitions The new concept of democide: Definition and qualifications 1 Article: What is Genocide? Democide versus genocide : which is what? Chapter: 1900-1987: 169,198,000 murdered 1 Article: pilot study: war isnt this centurys biggest killer References: overall sources of estimates/quotes/information 5 Table: summary by regime 5 Figure: democide year-by-year and war and rebellion-dead 5 What governments murdered how many? Table: summary of megamurderers -regimes that murdered 1,000,000 people or more 1 Chapter: the centi-kilo murderers-regimes that murdered 100,000 to 999,999 people or more 5 Tables: estimates, calculations, and sources, by states and by quasi-states 5 Chapter: the lesser murderers-regimes that murdered less than 100,000 people 5 Tables: estimates, calculations, and sources 5 Chapter: American bombing and other democide 5 Table: estimates, calculations, and sources 5 Paper: how many did communism murder? Chapter section: Khmer Rouge Cambodian democide 15 Chapter section: Rwandan genocide 15 Chapter: democide in totalitarian states: mortacracies and megamurderers-an annotated bibliography Chapter: the Holocaust in comparative perspective Paper: democide since World War II Chapter: the social field of democide 5 Tables: descriptive statistics among types of democide; The table in the upper right is from Table 12 of Death By Government. You are the visitor since 11/23/02 Return to top of page.