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| 2003/12/15 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:11456 Activity:kinda low |
12/14 We wage war under the ground of WMD. What happened if Iraq really
didn't have WMD? Under what ground we should try Saddam? defending
his homeland?
\_ "we" aren't, the Iraqis are.
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/12/15/politics/15PRIS.html
\_ I think we can ask the relatives of the 300K dead in mass graves
\_ guess what, not all of the mass grave were produced in reigm
of Saddam. Some of these mass grave were dated back to the
fall of Ottoman Empire.
\_ oh well that makes it ok then. might as well forget about
the attempted invasions of iran and kuwait also, and let this
swell fellow go.
\_ Didn't we support the invasion of Iran?
\_ The coldwar was about the lesser of two evils.
\_ Bwahahahahahahahaha! I damn near peed myself
laughing at this. Nice.
\_ 100+ million killed
20TH CENTURY DEMOCIDE
http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/20TH.HTM
Long live MARX!!!
\_ If you study these figures, you realize that
this guy comes up with some truly absurd
numbers. He claims that the US killed 6000
civilians during our entire 11 year war in
Vietnam, including all civilians killed by
bombings. This is just not believable. He
plays all sorts of other tricks with numbers
too, like claiming that all the Russians and
Ukranians who died of starvation during WWII
are the responsibility of Stalin.
\_ Most of Stalin's purges occurred before
WWII. He gives a detailed explanation
of the numbers in Vietnam.
\_ Is it really about the cold war? If so, how
come Iraq's tanks were all Soviet? I think
it's more about US supporting the despotic
Shah to control oil in Iran, only to see him
overthrown by mullahs, so US use Saddam and
his chemical weapons against Iran.
\_ Iran has been a monarchy for 2000 years; the
Shah was the royal successor. His deposal,
thanks in a large part to Carter and Congr.
Dems was the inaguaration of militant Islam.
Neither NATO nor the Warsaw Pack wanted a
clear victor Iran-Iraq war; better to let the
Muslim fanatics kill themselves off. In
restrospect the only mistake was that
they didn't kill enough of eachother.
\_ The fact remains. Iraq invaded Iran,
(just like Iraq invaded Kuwait) not
the other way around, and US
supported Iraq, helping Saddam in
multiple ways, including chemical
weapons.
\_ The justification of tacit Western
support was militant Islam. Based
on what has transpired since it
was completely justified. The
US did not give Iraq chemical
weapons, although transfers of
chemical and biological agents
were made from US universities.
Furthermore, the US did not
provide military hardware to
Iraq. Even today Iraqs military
orignates from France, Russia,
China, etc... there is no US
hardware whatsoever. Iran
also used chemical weapons, BTW.
\_ Besides assistance with chemical
weapons, US provided military
intelligence, logistics, food
credits (which Saddam easily turned
into money to buy weapons), and
encouraged allies to sell
weapons to Iraq. Iraq is the
one who started using chemical
weapons. US itself also left
all options open if attacked by
WMD, so Iran's response is
consistent with US policy.
US also impose sanctions (all
forms) against Iran during the
Iran-Iraq war, which is started
by Saddam, leading to 1 million
dead. US also sold Iraq 1
billion $US worth of trucks,
and changed the description on
the export licenses from
'vehicles designed for military
use' to 'commercial utility
cargo trucks'. US also allowed
Indonesia to sell attack
helicopters to Iraq (made by
US of course), cluster bombs
from South Africa and howitzers
from Austria.
\_ And what is your point?
This is common knowledge..
I think we should have let
them overrun the Iranian
mullahs.
\_ We tried, but failed,
and then it blew up in
our face.
\_ Hindsight is 20/20, there
was insufficient political
capital to do much else.
In the end the Soviets
were defeated.
\_ Like I said, it has
very little to do with
the Soviets. It's
about our control of
oil in the region.
That's why we are
still there long after
the demise of the SU.
\_ Oh my god you
think its about
oil NO WAY not
not in a million
years. LOL it
doesn't take a
genius to realize
we would have
extricated ourselves
long ago if not for
the oil. Guess what,
every country on the
face of the earth
wants to use oil,
including China,
Russia and France.
come Iraq's tanks were all Soviet?
\_ Look, I am about as anti-war as they come, and even I can see that
this is a pathetic attempt at a troll. I think we should just hand
him over to the Kurds and them do what they will. |
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| www.nytimes.com/2003/12/15/politics/15PRIS.html By NEIL A LEWIS (NYT) 983 words Late Edition - Final , Section A , Page 16 , Column 5 DISPLAYING FIRST 50 OF 983 WORDS - After United States officials finish interrogating Saddam Hussein, he is expected to become the principal defendant before a special Iraqi-led criminal tribunal that was formally established only last week, Iraqi and American officials said ... Since the conclusion of major combat in the Iraq war, Bush administration officials have consistently... Please Note: Archive articles do not include photos, charts or graphics. To read the complete article, simply click on one of the BUY NOW buttons below. You can buy this single article or, for even greater value, you can purchase this article as part of a multi-pack. You'll then have the opportunity to buy additional articles now or in the future at significant savings! Article Archive: 1996-Present multi-packs are not valid for use with Article Archive: 1851-1995 multi-packs and vice versa. How multi-packs work: A multi-pack is an archive package that saves you money by allowing you to pre-purchase a set number of articles in bulk at a reduced price. You can then debit from your multi-pack and quickly access articles from the archive at your convenience over the lifetime of the multi-pack. Please Note: Article Archive 1996-Present multi-packs are not valid for use with Article Archive: 1851-1995 multi-packs and vice versa. Once you purchase an article, you may view it as often as you like over the next 90 days. |
| www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/20TH.HTM CENTURY DEMOCIDE Nearly 170 million people probably have been murdered by governments in the 20th Century, 1900-1987; What are the statistics of this global bloodbath and what governments have done this? What about the United States? CONTENTS Definitions The new concept of democide: Definition and qualifications 1 Article: What is Genocide? Democide versus genocide : which is what? Chapter: 1900-1987: 169,198,000 murdered 1 Article: pilot study: war isnt this centurys biggest killer References: overall sources of estimates/quotes/information 5 Table: summary by regime 5 Figure: democide year-by-year and war and rebellion-dead 5 What governments murdered how many? Table: summary of megamurderers -regimes that murdered 1,000,000 people or more 1 Chapter: the centi-kilo murderers-regimes that murdered 100,000 to 999,999 people or more 5 Tables: estimates, calculations, and sources, by states and by quasi-states 5 Chapter: the lesser murderers-regimes that murdered less than 100,000 people 5 Tables: estimates, calculations, and sources 5 Chapter: American bombing and other democide 5 Table: estimates, calculations, and sources 5 Paper: how many did communism murder? Chapter section: Khmer Rouge Cambodian democide 15 Chapter section: Rwandan genocide 15 Chapter: democide in totalitarian states: mortacracies and megamurderers-an annotated bibliography Chapter: the Holocaust in comparative perspective Paper: democide since World War II Chapter: the social field of democide 5 Tables: descriptive statistics among types of democide; The table in the upper right is from Table 12 of Death By Government. You are the visitor since 11/23/02 Return to top of page. |