12/9    What language (other than English) is more widely used in western
        Europe?  I'm trying to decide to learn either German or French.
        And another related question for anyone who has been to the
        Netherlands:  it seems like a large part of the Dutch population
        speaks German.  Why is that?  Thanks.
        \_ Learn French. You can get more chicks with it.
        \_ Learn French.  German is a horrid language.  It's not widely
           spoken and you will hate it.  Trust me, I speak both.  Dutch is
           sort of cute, but you don't get much mileage out of it.  -John
           \_ Then again, this is coming from a guy who didn't think
                30 millions lives of Chinese is not worth nearly as much as
                3 million Jews.  so, be aware
                \_ I think you have a double negative problem there.  Not to
                   mention your head stuck way up your ass.
           \_ John, can I get around switzerland or germany/austria with
              french?  Most people in switzerland speaks german I think.
              I know english is the de-factor second language in the world.
                                    \_ de facto
              I'm trying to avoid speaking english when I go to europe.
              I don't want to be the big ugly american.
              \_ don't worry, with broken english like that, you wouldn't
                 pass for american.
                 \_ http://www.winternet.com/~mikelr/flame31.html
   "Grammarian usually has little to contribute to a discussion and
   possesses few effective weapons. To compensate, he will point out
   minor errors in spelling and grammar. Because of Grammarian's obvious
   weakness most Warriors ignore him."
                    You need to troll harder, grammarian.  I was hoping you
                    would work your way up the troll ladder.  But you're stuck.
                \_ hey, we found partha:
                   http://www.winternet.com/~mikelr/flame16.html
           spoken and you will hate it.  Trust me, I speak both.  -John
        \_ 'Dutch' is a corruption of 'Deutsch.'  Think about it.
        \_ IMHO, it all depends on what you want to do with the language.
           French is more widely spoken in Western Europe, some part of Africa
           and even in Asia too. (Vietnam comes to mind) If you're learning it
           for fun, AND if you've done some French in high school/college, go
           with French. German is an easier language to learn in terms of
           pronounciation (just watch our governator for practice :)) and
           a few words are similar to English. Good for reading techie manuals
           and an important language in the medical field. It might even get
           you a job at Siemens, BMW, DT, etc. since they're actively
           recruiting German-English speakers. If you're into history, think
           Latin. Not as much fun but it's pretty useful.
           \_ HEIL!!!!! LONG LIVE DIE FUHRER!
           Latin. Not as much fun but it's pretty useful.
              \_ Der.  Der Fuhrer, not Die Fuhrer.

           Or you may want to think about Spanish. Yes I know it's "boring"
           but given the usefulness in California compared to other European
           languages (i.e. you're more likely to meet someone to speak
           Spanish with in CA than any other languages), it may be good, plus
           you've most likely received some basic Spanish in High School.
           you've most likely received some basic Spanish in High School.
           \_ spanish is boring and french isn't?  you're a nut.

           Dutch people tend to be proficient in their second languages because
           they are aware that not many people outside Holland speaks Dutch
           (except for maybe Namibia, South Africa, etc.) so rather than
           y(except for maybe Namibia, South Africa, etc.) so
           rather than taking the stance of the stereotypical snotty French,
           they rely on German, English or French. (German comes to mind since
           taking the stance of the stereotypical snotty French, they rely on
           German, English or French. (German comes to mind since it's
                                                 \_ he's over there!
           bordering east of Holland; a lot of people from the Eastern
           \_ Even the word 'Dutch' is a bastardized german word for 'German'.
              See above.
              \_ The Dutch have no love for the Germans, though, and the
                 languages are about as similar as Spanish and Italian or
                 Portuguese.
                 \_ I don't think the Germans are particularly popular in
                    Europe.
           it's bordering east of Holland; a lot of people from the Eastern
           part of Holland cross the Germany border to go shopping. This info
           comes from a good friend who lives in Groningen (Holland). Hope this
           part of Holland cross the Germany border to go shopping. This info
           helps, sorry it's long-winded.
           comes from a good friend who lives in Groningen (Holland). Hope this
           helps, sorry it's long-winded.
        \_ About Dutch/German: the languages have a lot of similarities, more so
           than French/Dutch. I know a little German and many Dutch words look
                                                 \_ he's over there!
           like bastardized German.
           \_ Even the word 'Dutch' is a bastardized german word for 'German'.
              See above.
              \_ The Dutch have no love for the Germans, though, and the
                 languages are about as similar as Spanish and Italian or
                 Portuguese.
                 \_ I don't think the Germans are particularly popular in
                    Europe.