Berkeley CSUA MOTD:Entry 11194
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2003/11/22-24 [Politics/Domestic/President/Clinton, Politics/Domestic/SocialSecurity] UID:11194 Activity:moderate
11/22   Any thoughts on the medicare bill on the house?  There was lots of
        discussion on the energy bill, but little on this one.  Good/bad?
        \_ The democrats are opposed and republicans in favor: it must be bad.
        \_ It has this really curious feature where beneficiaries with very low
           bills and very high bills are given lots of coverage, but those
           with bills within the median are given much less coverage.
           Anyway, both sides can go stick it where the sun don't shine - this
           is just more expansion of the entitlement system for immediate
           political gain, when they should be taking much more important
           (and of course, politically painful) steps to reform the system.
           Neither the Congress nor the President have displayed anything
           approaching the courage and integrity necessary to make that happen.
             --motd liberal
           \_ What is a liberal doing bitching about an entitlement system?
              You're no liberal.  You sound more like a libertarian.
              \_ Yup, agree.  -- another motd libertarian
              \_ I consider myself a liberal because of my opinions on social
                 issues and the workings of the justice system.  I recognize the
                 need for serious reform of our entitlement system for the
                 elderly, however.  From what I have seen, those than consider
                 themselves libertarians would like to dismantle the entire
                 entitlement system, rather than change the way that it
                 functions.  Also, I think corporate welfare (i.e, the ethanol
                 subsidy which amounts to a direct transfer of taxpayer money
                 to ADMs executives) is equally in need of reform, but I haven't
                 heard the same from many libertarians.  Not every liberal is
                 a raving Marxist/ANSWER loony, just like not every
                 conservative is a jingoistic dittohead.  BTW, the Economist
                 has a very nice graph on what may happen to the budget
                 deficit in the next 10 years:
                 http://economist.com/images/20031108/CSF889.gif
                   --motd liberal
                 \_ Whoa there, bucko.  If you haven't heard that corporate
                    welfare is bad from libertarians, you haven't heard from
                    any libertarians.
                    \_ that's the biggest load of shit on todays motd.
                       Libertarians blather about this, but when you look
                       issue by issue, they clearly favor the rights of
                       corporations over individuals, which will always lead
                       to corporate welfare.  Libertarians are quite possibly
                       the biggest threat to american society today.  if
                       libertarians continue to destroy the government,
                       issue by issue, they clearly favor the rights
                       corporations without any legal or ethical restraint
                       will rule our lives.  [formatd, big time]
                        \_ Please point to ONE single instance of
                           libertarians, or even the libertarian party
                           supporting "the rights of corporations over
                           individuals".  Libertarianism is ALL about the
                           the rights of individuals.  You don't know what
                           the hell you are talking about.  Your irrational
                           fear of what you clearly know nothing about is
                           disturbing.  -phuqm
                           \_ read their fucking platform
                              http://www.lp.org
                              in particular, see
                              http://www.lp.org/issues/program/health.html
                              Yeah, I can't wait till we eliminate the
                              evil FDA so we're free to take whatever
                              drugs the pharmas feel like marketing.
                              \_ Health Care is what i assumed you would say.
                                 I didn't consider opposition to the FDA.
                                 I didn't realize that not being able to buy
                                 drugs that have been legal in Europe for ages
                                 was one of the "rights" of individuals that
                                 you would be concerned with.
                                 For the record, I personally believe a Food
                                 and Drug admin. could play a valuable role
                                 in society.  But THE FDA is a net loss  even
                                 In terms of "rights" I don't see how any
                                 you just have no standing whatsoever. Exactly
                                 in terms of absolute benefit to society.
                                 In terms of "rights" I don't see how you
                       will rule our lives.  [formatd, big time]
                              drugs the pharmas feel like marketing.
                                 can make any argument whatsoever.  Exactly
                                 WHICH "individual" right do you think is
                                 being threatened by this position? -phuqm
                       \_ Just because you SAY libertarians favor the rights
                          of corporations over individuals, doesn't make it
                          true.  Personally, I am not even sure all
                          libertarians are willing to grant corps legal person
                          status.  At any rate, the libertarians don't
                          trust government much in the same way your amusing,
                          ranty little self doesn't trust Big Business.
                          Big Business is motivated by money.  What is
                       of corporations over individuals, which will always
                       lead to corporate welfare.  Libertarians are
                       quite possibly the biggest threat to american society
                       today.  if libertarians continue to destroy the
                       government,
                       corporations without any legal or ethical restraint
                         \_ You're not the only one, you should
                            http://www.freerepublic.com  Lots of libertarians.
                       will rule our lives.
                          Big Government motivated by?  Think about that.
                          Big Government motivated by?  Think about that.
                        \_ this libertarian thinks it's insane that corps have
                           legal person status and the rights that go with it.
                           that was a *huuuuge* mistake we'll be paying for
                           forever or until changed.
                    \_ agreed. It was primarily libertarians railing about
                        this in the motd previously. (e.g. me). It is also
                        mostly libertarians fighting eminent domain
                        abuses, where government orgs steal private
                        entity's property to give it to other (invariably
                        richer) private entities.  -phuqm
                         \_ You're not the only one, you should
                            http://www.freerepublic.com  Lots of libertarians.
                 \_ nice graph.  looks like we're just repeating the same
                    numbers as the clinton glory years of economic health.
                    anyway, it's easy to knock something.  how would you
                    reform the system if you had the power?
        \_ Just politicians spending more of the taxpayers money to
           buy votes.
           \_ Isn't that what all entitlement programs are?
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5/24    

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Libertarian elected trustee of Colorado town April 8 After years of helping with other Libertarians political campaigns, Joe Johnson of Frederick, Colorado, has been elected as a trustee in that town. In an April 6 election, he came in first in an eight-way race for three seats on the town board. Read the story California LP hoping to freeze taxes Patrick Aleman discovered the Libertarian Party in California when he was searching for someone to help him fight high taxes in Barstow, a city of 22,000 midway between Los Angeles and Las Vegas, Nevada. While sending out feelers to taxpayers rights groups in the state, Aleman encountered the California LPs California Tax Freeze - a series of model tax-reduction initiatives co-authored by state LP chairman Aaron Starr and a volunteer attorney with the Howard Jarvis Taxpayers Association. Read the story Libertarian TV program in New Jersey celebrates 300th show April 6 With the television news media leaning heavily to either pro-Democrat or pro-Bush positions, a third point of view is needed in the studio, Libertarians say. And in New Jersey, cable television viewers have exactly that: Third Point of View is the name of a nonprofit, public access cable show dedicated to the presentation and advancement of libertarian principles. Read the story Russo selected in California LP straw poll April 5 In an abrupt turnaround, California Libertarians recently expressed their preference for Hollywood producer Aaron Russo to be the Libertarian Party nominee for president in 2004.
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