11/11   Hey, gun nuts!  Is the M16 really that much of a piece of junk?
        Why are we still using it?  does it have *any* advantages over the
        AK-47?  What about those assault rifles the Swiss militia uses?
        \_ The M16 is one of the best assault weapons in the world.  Its
           reputation for jamming is largely a misconception carried over
           from Vietnam. One of the reasons there were such hideous issues
           in Vietnam was due to the fact that the weapon was manufactured
           for a specific type of propellant.  A different (cheaper, I would
           guess) was then issued in the field which caused massive cleaning
           problems, and alot of its reputation for jamming.  Usually you can
           look to the special operations community to get a feel for how
           effective a weapon system is.  AFAICR, British SAS, American Special
           Forces, and the Israelies all use this weapon system.  *shrug*
           There are many other weapon systems which are superior (definitely
           NOT the AK47), and the decision to stay with a newer revision of
           the '16 is definitely political.
        \_ search the motd archive, this was gone over not too long ago...
        \_ Like any weapon procurement, this is mostly political. The M-16
           works beautifully, as long as you don't use it for anything
           silly like war. Got some dirt in it? Just hope the enemy isn't
           attacking you while you are cleaning out the dust, dirt, or
           anything commonly found on the battlefield. At basic training,
           one instructor said that if you are battling an enemy using an
           AK-47, shoot and kill the enemy, then take his weapon. Though
           \_ Uhh, that may have been true in Vietnam, but in the modern
              battlefield, I think that's the stupidest thing I've ever
              heard.  No offense to you, amigo.
           it does not have the range or accuracy of the M-16, in real
           battles, it is priceless because it will work in real battlefield
           conditions (with dirt, mud, etc. plus, it's easy to disassemble
           and clean, quickly).
           \_ So if there's a sandstorm in Iraq now, our ground troops will
              suffer big losses?
              \_ It requires someone shooting at you who can aim to suffer
                 losses.  big losses requires lots and lots of guys shooting
                 at lots and lots of guys (in a sandstorm) and hitting them.
                 so, no, we don't take big losses at every sandstorm.
                 \_ Well, that also assumes they jam, which after 30+ years
                    of service and four revisions, seems pretty fucking
                    unlikely.
        \_ link:AR15.com
           \_ This site bears a striking resemblance to a lot of white power
              web sites.
        \_ I think you should be comparing it with the old M-14 rather
           than comparing it with AK-47s
        \_ M16 gets dirty and jams quickly.  Rounds are lighter and tumble,
           rather than 7.92mm which go straight through.  M16 is also lighter
           overall, but more complex to manufacture.  Draw your own
           confusions.  -John
           \_ 7.62mm?
              \_ they use their own scale in switzerland.