Berkeley CSUA MOTD:Entry 10940
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2024/12/25 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
12/25   

2003/11/5-6 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:10940 Activity:high
11/4    http://www.snopes.com/politics/quotes/gulfwar.asp
        \_ dubya is a dumbass.  I still can't believe he went through with it
           (Gulf War II)
        \_ This is what I don't understand.  Bush Sr. never intended to
           invade Iraq. I presume that was not just his lone opinion,
           but rather, consensus among his staff.  Consider that a good
           number of Bush Jr's staff are inherit from his father, wouldn't
           you expect there is at least SOME degree of consistancy in opinion
           regards to this Iraq business?
           \_ Yeah because 12 years didn't change the world at all.  Everything
              in the world remains exactly the same over time and the same
              response is always appropriate in all situations.
        \_ Look.. oh ignorant of histoy one.. you always need someone outside
           to blame.. in this he was a despot that took a little longer to
           remove.
        \_ Do any of you so called geeks engage in strategy / role playing
           games?  Do you fight defensively
           on your own territory or take the offensive and attack.
           In virtually every game the attacker wins.  War is no
           different, the aggressor has a huge advantage.  Hence,
           fight the Islamicist's on their territory - not in the
           West.
           \_ But, but, that would be racist and mean!
           \_ Nice troll try. Your use of games vs. reality tempted me.
           \_ I heard Russia won every war that it's the defense in history,
              but lost every war that it's the offense.
                \_ Russia lost over 20 million in WWII, St. Petersburg
                   and Moscow were destroyed completely.  All of their
                   war material was supplied by the U.S. through lend
                   lease.  Napoleon was driven back by the winter.
                   Russia 'won' neither of these conflicts, only
                   harsh, early winters and inept planning by their
                   enemies saved them.
                   \_ Nah, US supplied a little material, but most of
                      it was made by Russians.  The number of tanks
                      and planes the Russians made is about the
                      same level as what the US made in WWII.  They
                      moved many factories to the Urals.  Zhukov is
                      probably better than any of the US or British
                      generals.
                        \_ Are you sure?
                           http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/6315/lend.html
                           You are right I exagerated by saying all but a
                           significant contribution.
                                1100 locomotives
                                440,000 trucks
                                12,000 aircraft
                                28000 jeeps
                                nuclear material
                                1,200,000 tons of steel.
                           You are right I exagerated by saying all but a
                           significant contribution.
                           \_ WTF?
                              Pianos, new                              2 $530
                              Phonograpbs, except coin-operated        4 $ 67.
                        \_ Zhukov?  Yeah right, the guy's got how many Russian
                           soldier's deaths on his hands?  If any American
                           general lost 300,000 American lives in a single
                           battle, he'd be executed if he was lucky.
                                \_  800,000 died in the battle for Stalingrad.
                \_ I've seen a map of Russia's size over the last 1000 years.
                   They've grown and shrunk dramatically several times which
                   can't happen unless they attacked and won something.
                \_ Genghis Khan (or should that be Ogotai?) kicked their
                   arse but that's about it.
           \_ I play Age of Empires, and yes a good defense can win the
              game.
                \_ Bull, none of the expert players play defensively
                   you will always lose.
2024/12/25 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
12/25   

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www.snopes.com/politics/quotes/gulfwar.asp
Furthermore, we had been self-consciously trying to set a pattern for handling aggression in the post-Cold War world. Going in and occupying Iraq, thus unilaterally exceeding the United Nations mandate, would have destroyed the precedent of international response to aggression that we hoped to establish. Had we gone the invasion route, the United States could conceivably still be an occupying power in a bitterly hostile land. Origins: The quote reproduced above is reasonably accurate, although as indicated by the ellipses some of the context has been elided. We had been unable to find Noriega in Panama, which we knew intimately. We would have been forced to occupy Baghdad and, in effect, rule Iraq. The coalition would instantly have collapsed, the Arabs deserting it in anger and other allies pulling out as well. Under the circumstances, there was no viable exit strategy we could see, violating another of our principles. Furthermore, we had been self-consciously trying to set a pattern for handling aggression in the post-Cold War world. Going in and occupying Iraq, thus unilaterally exceeding the United Nations mandate, would have destroyed the precedent of international response to aggression that we hoped to establish. Had we gone the invasion route, the United States could conceivably still be an occupying power in a bitterly hostile land. It would have been a dramatically different and perhaps barren outcome.
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www.geocities.com/Pentagon/6315/lend.html
Complete List of Lend Lease to Russia including atomic materials Lend Lease to Russia From Major Jordan Diaries NY: Harcourt, Brace, 1952 Chapter Nine ITEM Quantity Cost in Dollars ATOMIC MATERIALS Beryllium metals 9,681 lbs. Page one ITEM Quantity Cost in Dollars Thorium salts and compounds 25,352 $ 32,570 Brass & bronze blanks 32,760,542 lbs. Page two Item Quantity Cost in Dollars Item Quantity Cost in Dollars METALS & METAL MANUFACTURES, continued METALS & METAL MANUFACTURES, continued Vises 4,398 $ 68,521. Page four Item Quantity Cost in Dollars Item Quantity Cost in Dollars METALS & METAL MANUFACTURES, continued IRON, STEEL & ALLIED PRODUCTS Files & rasps, 7-in. Page five Item Quantity Cost in Dollars Item Quantity Cost in Dollars Iron & steel hot-rolled, stainless 2,543,563 lbs. Page six Item Quantity Cost in Dollars Item Quantity Cost in Dollars IRON, STEEL & ALLIED PRODUCTS, continued MACHINES, MACHINE TOOLS & PARTS, continued Malleable iron screwed pipefittings 999,d94 lbs. MACHINES, MACHINE TOOLS & PARTS Knitting machine parts, nes - 67,804. Page seven Item Quantity Cost in Dollars Item Quantity Cost In Dollars MACHINES, MACHINE TOOLS & PARTS, continued ELECTRICAL EQUIPMENT, continued Water wheels, turbines & parts - S 522,845. Page eight Item Quantity Cost in Dollars Item Quantity Cost in Dollars ELECTRICAL EQUIPMENT, continued CANVAS ARTICLES, WOOLEN GOODS, CLOTHING, ETC. Page nine Item Quantity Cost in Dollars Item Quantity Cost in Dollars CANVAS ARTICLES, WOOLEN GOODS, CLOTHING, ETC, RUBBER COMMODITIES continued Erasers & bands 61,539 lbs. Page ten Item Quantity Cost in Dollars Item Quantity Cost in Dollars COTTONS COTTONS, continued Cotton gauze & sterile bandage Cotton heavy filter, hose, belting absorbent cotton 428,391 lbs. Page eleven Item Quantity Cost in Dollars Item Quantity Cost in Dollars WOOD & WOOD PRODUCTS WOOD & WOOD PRODUCTS, continued Boards, doug. Page fourteen Item Quantity Cost in Dollars Item Quantity Cost in Dollars CHEMICALS, continued CHEMICALS, continued Medicinal chemicals for Prescrip- Ocher, umber & iron oxide, nes l22,557 lbs. Page fifteen Item Quantity Cost in Dollars Item Quantity Cost in Dollars CHEMlCALS, continued Potassium carbonate & mix. Page sixteen Item Quantity Cost in Dollars Item Quantity Cost in Dollars CHEMICALS, contined CHEMlCALS, continued Sulfathiazole & derivatives 4,300 lbs. Page eightteen Item Quantity Cost in Dollars Item Quantity Cost in Dollars FOODSTUFFS, continued FOODSTUFFS, continued Wheat flour, wholly of United States wheat 7,806,589 bar. Page twenty Item Quantity Cost in Dollars Item Quantity Cost in Dollars GENERATING EQUIPMENT, continued PHOTOGRAPHIC SUPPLIES, continued Generators 6,214 $ 222,020,760. Page twenty-one Item Quantity Cost in Dollars Item Quantity Cost in Dollars PHOTOGRAPHIC SUPPLIES, continued MISCELLANEOUS ITEMS, continued Carbon brushes & stock 150,144 lbs. Page twenty-two Item Quantity Cost in Dollars Item Quantity Cost in Dollars MISCELLANEOUS ITEMS, continued MICELLANEOUS ITEMS, continued Military items, nes - $ l,789,005,783. Page twenty-three Item Quantity Cost in Dollars Item Quantity Cost in Dollars MISCELLANEOUS FOR l945 ONLY, continued MISCELLANEOUS FOR 1945 ONLY, continued Woodworking machinery & parts $ 280,128. Page twenty-four Item Quantity Cost in Dollars Item Quantity Cost in Dollars MlSCELLANEOUS FOR 1945 ONLY, continued MISCELLANEOUS FOR 1945 ONLY, continued Sights, artillery 500 $447,001. Page twenty five Item Quantity Cost in Dollars Item Quantity Cost in Dollars MISCELLANEOUS FOR 1945 ONLY, continued MISCELLANEOUS FOR 1945 ONLY, continued Engines, marine, nes 669 $2,759,268. JORDANS SPECIAL Equipment & parts, air brake, railway Household & personal effects 86,646. Page twenty-six Item Quantity Cost in Dollars Item Quantity Cost in Dollars JORDANS SPECIAL, continued JORDANS SPECIAL, contniued Smoking tobacco 4,079 lbs. SUMMARY MUNITIONS $4,651,582,000 NON-MUNITIONS 4,826,084,000 - Total 9,477,666,000 Note: the figure of $11 billion includes services as well as goods furnished. The United States Government has never released detailed reports on what was sent in Lend-Lease, so Major Jordans data, gleaned from the Russians own manifests, is the only public record. More than one-third of Lend-Lease sent was illegal under the terms of the act which specifically prohibited goods furnished for relief and rehabilitation purposes. Franklin Roosevelts alter ego and Lend-Lease administrator Harry L. Hopkins, a KGB agent, declared to Russia before a crowd at Madison Square Garden on June 22, 1942, that: We are determined that nothing shall stop us from sharing with you all that we have.