Berkeley CSUA MOTD:Entry 10670
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2025/05/25 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
5/25    

2003/10/17 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China] UID:10670 Activity:nil
10/16   If the Chinese invented gunpowdah, why the hell didn't they use it
        for guns and other weaponries? Couldn't they have used the
        technology to expand their empire further?
        \_ Why bother with guns if you have flying emperors?
           http://tinyurl.com/rb3h  -John
           \_ yea, we all know you love chinese.
        \_ China wasn't expansionist.
           \_ Wahahahahhahahahahaaa!!!  They tell you that in 5th grade?
              \_ I agree with op.  Relatively speaking, China is less
                 expansionist.  Partly, it's due to anal retentive
                 confucian morality, but moslty it's because Chinese
                 prefer to stay at home and enjoy life.
                        \_ I also prefer to stay at home and enjoy life.
                           Why is America expanding in Iraq?
                           \_ The US is not expanding in Iraq.  Iraq will
                              retain its identity as a separate nation.
                        \_ No, they've already conquered everything around them
                           that was easy to take over.  They hit the ocean and
                           the desert and the mountains and thus were stopped
                           only the the surrounding terrain.  There was no
                           where left to expand.  Go buy a globe.
                           \_ Actually they stopped because the Emperor told
                              them to stop. Felt there was no need to conquer
                              anything else because it was unworthy. Go buy a
                              history book.
                           \_ Nah, when Zheng He and his mightly fleet sailed
                              the seven seas, they could easily have invaded
                              many lands but they didn't.

        \_ There was some PBS show (connections? James Burkley?). He
           mentioned that is was cultural. Using gunpowder for fire crackers
           for ceremonies and stuff like that. It took a western view to see
           gunpowder in a different light, and adapting the "bell" for
           another use (as a cannon, basically).
                \_ so you're implying that white men are evil? racist.
                   \_ well, those are your words, not mine (they are evil
                      buggers, though, aren't they?).
                   \_ no he's implying that chinese lack imagination and that's
                      why they're still a 3rd world power.
                      \_ No, actually they thought they had already done
                         it all and perfected their civilization (or something
                         to that effect).
           \_ Actually, I think a lot of it was because China controlled the
              areas it wanted to rule without huge opposition. Creating and
              mass producing new exotic weapons like guns aren't a priority.
         \_ in addition to all above, in order to have an arms race you need
            two or more powers matched closely enough in order to be racing!
            otherwise the dominant power tends to institutionalize its current
            methods.  fear often overrides concerns of honor, sportsmanship,
            or whatever concept binds one to the old ways.
        \_ Actually, they did, according to this NOVA interview:
           http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/lostempires/china/age.html
2025/05/25 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
5/25    

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Cache (1767 bytes)
tinyurl.com/rb3h -> www.pilotfriend.com/century-of-flight/Aviation%20history/flight%20history/history5.htm
In both cases, a vehicle is used to transport a person or cargo above the surface of the earth. Sometimes vehicles that are rocket-propelled may also be airworthy, as in the case of the Space Shuttle. The skills and physical abilities of astronauts were, at least in the early stages of space flight, determined to be similar to those of test pilots. And NASA, the United States government agency that is responsible for the space program, grew directly out of NACA, the agency responsible for experimentation and research in atmospheric flight. But rocket flight is very different from aerial flight different even from jet- prop elled flight and its place in the history of aviation is mainly in the early stages, when the distinction between the two was still blurred. A rocket is simply a device in which an objectthe payloadis propelled by the reactive effect of hot gasses exhausted in a specific direction. The faster the gas is spewed out in one direction, the heavier the payload can be and the faster it can be propelled in the opposite direction. The earliest rockets were almost certainly Chinesethere is little doubt that the Chinese first developed black powder, the basic propellant used in rockets. The combination of salt-peter, charcoal, and sulphur was probably used in fireworks by the Chinese centuries before Christ lived, but the only written records available are dated well into the Middle Ages. Mongols besieging the city of Kaifeng in 1232 used arrows propelled by rockets though primarily as a psychological weapon. Knowledge about rocketry seems to have moved with the Mongol invasionsthe Arabs are seen as having developed rockets by the thirteenth century and are reported as having used them against Saint Louis in the Seventh Crusade;
Cache (8192 bytes)
www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/lostempires/china/age.html
Yates, Professor of History and East Asian Studies at McGill University in Montreal, Quebec, Canada has to say about this exceptional era - and how it influenced the course of world history. NOVA: Lets begin by providing a worldwide context for the Song Dynasty. In 1271, the Italian merchant Marco Polo is believed to have visited China. Yates: Well, theres a debate as to whether Marco Polo ever did, in fact, visit China. However, assuming Polos account is real, what comes across most obviously is that he was utterly astonished at the size of the cities and the extent of commercial activity in China. The number of ships on Chinese canals and rivers far exceeded what Polo was familiar with in the cities of Italy, such as Venice or Genoa. The Chinese were using very sophisticated looms with up to 1,800 moving parts. China was simply far more developed technologically and culturally than any state in the West. But one wonders whether Polo had actually visited, because of the things that he doesnt write about at all. He doesnt mention paper money and the bank note, which were both invented during the Song Dynasty. You would have thought that if hed lived there for 20 years, he might have noticed it, because Western Europe didnt have it. Chinese invented restaurants to serve traveling officials and merchants. NOVA: What are some of the things that made these large, bustling Chinese cities unique in their time? Yates: There is a strong connection between the increasing urbanization and the burgeoning commercialization of Chinese culture at this time. Merchants traveled from one place to another, and a new group of scholar-officials was appointed to administer the country. The traveling merchants and officials wanted to eat the cuisine that they were used to in their local region. And people with some extra wealth in the urban centers also wanted to try food from different regions. So what developed was a new urban type of culture that included eating out in restaurants and the drinking of tea. It was really in the Song Dynasty that tea reached its cult status. It was drunk out of very beautiful, extraordinarily exquisite tea bowls made from porcelain, one of the glories of the Song Dynasty. The word china is appropriate for porcelain, because the Chinese developed the technology for its production. The Song Dynasty ceramic industry was basically the first commercialized industry. They produced the pieces in mass quantities for the imperial palace, but also for this newly arisen class of scholar-officials and an urban elite and for these restaurants. Eventually, two of the main products the West wanted in the 17th, 18th, and 19th centuries were porcelain and tea, so much of the trade between East and West was based on those items. With restaurants, common folk could eat out very, very cheaply on food such as fried noodles, which, it is said, Marco Polo introduced to the West. Although theres a lot of debate about that, the idea of spaghetti probably comes from China at about the time of the Song, possibly carried across the ocean by Arab traders, who are known to have established themselves in ports such as Canton by the ninth century. NOVA: Tea and restaurants are certainly two important gifts the Song people gave to the world. What were some of the other Chinese inventions of this period that had a profound influence on the course of civilization? Yates: Gunpowder completely transformed the way wars were waged and contributed to the eventual establishment of might over right. In my own research, I have been able to refute the common notion that the Chinese invented gunpowder but only used it for fireworks. I have found the earliest illustration of a cannon in the world, which dates from the change-over from the Northern Song to the Southern Song around 1127, which was 150 years before the development of the cannon in the West. The Song also used gunpowder to make fire lances - actually flame throwers - and many other gunpowder weapons, such as anti-personnel mines, which are thankfully now being taken out of general use. Needless to say, the cannon was used by the kings of Europe to fundamentally alter the social structure of the European world. And it enabled, therefore, the centralized nation-state to develop. By the end of the Song Dynasty, the Chinese invented multiple-stage rockets. If we hadnt had that, maybe we would not have been able to put a man on the moon. Joseph Needham, an historian of Chinese science and technology, also argues that the notion of an explosion in a self-contained cylinder also permitted the development of the internal combustion engine and the steam engine. Our basic modes of transportation would not have been possible without this Chinese invention. NOVA: How did the Chinese invention of gunpowder move from East to West? Yates: Although scholars often consider the Song Dynasty to have been very weak, its use of gunpowder was the reason it was able to hold off the Mongols for many decades. Eventually, the Mongols were able to capture Chinese artisans and use the latest gunpowder technology against the Chinese. The Mongols used those people who had a special knowledge of technology and employed them in their own armies as engineers. They carried that technology to the West very rapidly because it was very helpful in their conquests. What was interesting with this transfer of technology is that it goes both ways. After the introduction of the cannon and gunpowder to the West, Westerners very quickly became expert with cannons. They cast bronze cannons that were eventually much better than those the Chinese could produce. The Western bronze cannon was then brought back to China by the Jesuits in the 16th and 17th centuries. The Ming Dynasty, which fought the Manchus, employed Jesuit priests to cast cannons that were more advanced than the Chinese had at that time. The development of printing enabled Chinese officials to distribute important documents. NOVA: Youve made a strong case for the impact of gunpowder all over the world. But were there major non-military inventions during the Song Dynasty that had an impact worldwide? Printing was actually invented by the Buddhists in the eighth century for dissemination of religious images and texts. But in the Song Dynasty, the government promoted the publication of the Confucian texts called The Canons. Once you passed the examinations you were eligible to become an official. So many copies of the Confucian texts were published at this time. In addition, the government popularized the use of printing for the dissemination of technical manuals, such as agricultural manuals and works on medicine. Eventually, private printing presses started, which fundamentally altered the world of letters and dissemination of knowledge. In the 11th century, a famous literary artist by the name of Shen Gua records the invention of movable-type printing by a man by the name of Bi Sheng. It was this invention that was eventually taken over to the West and used by Gutenberg for the printing of the Bible. Needless to say, this had a profound effect on the nature of knowledge and the development of literature. NOVA: Did the development of printing change China the way it would change Europe? Yates: The effect of printing was different in East and West because of the nature of the Chinese language. The Chinese language, when it is written, uses characters or graphs, sort of like ideograms. As a consequence, there are literally thousands of Chinese characters. Obviously for most types of writing, you dont need the 48,000 different Chinese characters. Movable-type printing was more practical, with a very limited number of symbols, such as the letters used in European alphabetic languages. In Chinese writing, you had to have a very large number of characters, each individually carved to set in the press. So even though they invented movable type, it actually was never as useful as wood-block printing -carving the blocks of each page separately and independently. So that was the reason why there were some books printed using movable type, but it never really replaced wood-block printing in the wa...