Berkeley CSUA MOTD:Entry 10622
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2025/05/25 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
5/25    

2003/10/14 [Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:10622 Activity:nil
10/13   http://www.iht.com/articles/113629.html is the first step to the
        US finally bringing our troops home and letting the EU pay for
        their own defense.
        \_ you mean redeploy our troops to other third world countries.
        \_ how fucking long ago was it that the whole fucking world
           was united behind the US in goodwill and military support
           after 9/11?  Now we have the most precarious split of NATO
           since its inception.  Great fucking foreign relations, W.
           \_ Goodwill doesn't keep your citizens safe, capture or stop
              foreign terrorists, shutdown terrorist training bases or
              really do much else for us.  Once we started trying to cash in
              that goodwill it dried up really god damned fast.  It was just
              foreign PR.  It's easy to say, "oh! the world's greatest super
              power just took a civilian hit, let's send a nice note!"  thats
              what diplomats do.
           \_ It's unclear it's W's fault.  The whole world may have been
              united behind the US, but as soon as the US started flexing a
              little muscle, various countries started noticing it wasn't in
              their best interest.  Go figure, the world is ruled by
              self-interest.  The US only had support while it did nothing,
              and it could no longer afford to do nothing.
              \_ That's right, the Iraqis had nukes headed our way!
              \_ A little diplomacy can go a long way. Look how Bush I got
                 the whole world to line up behind him for Gulf War I.
                 \_ Only in name and tokens.  It was an American action as
                    always.
              \_ Other countries backed us up when we invaded Afghanistan.
                 They objected when we invaded a country that did not support
                 al Qaeda.
                 \_ Bush and the neocons are right. Everyone else in the
                    whole wide world is crazy. Just ask them.
                 \_ We've seen links here claiming otherwise.  Unless you're
                    in the intelligence agencies assigned to an anti-terror
                    unit, you can't know either way what links there may or
                    may not have been.
                    \_ Then you're on the same page as Dick Cheney ...
                       This article argues against that:
                       http://www.hillnews.com/marshall/091703.aspx
              \_ NATO was enough for Serbia.  NATO was enough for the first
                 gulf-war.  The French and Germans, and now Britain are saying
                 NATO is not enough....  hmmm...  I wonder why ??
                 \_ Because after the Soviets fell to Ronald Reagan they're
                    no longer afraid.  We killed the big bad wolf for them
                    so it's now safe for them to march around heads held high
                    saying they don't need us anymore.  They're right for the
                    present but they'll be sorry in about 20 years and come
                    begging for help again and again we'll do it.  Not sure
                    why.  We're just stupid like that I guess.
                    \_ So true...
                    \_ uh huh.  Everyone knows the Soviets fell to Ronald
                       Reagan between the Serbian conflict and the recent
                       Iraqi war.
2025/05/25 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
5/25    

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www.iht.com/articles/113629.html
LONDON A potential trans-Atlantic breach has opened in the aftermath of the Iraq war that seems to leave Britain wavering between its exclusive, pro-American commitment to NATO and involvement in a European Union defense initiative pushed by France and Germany. So far the British and Americans have wadded their differences in gentlemanly exchanges. Still, it is now certain that Blair in late September shifted Britains position from no to yes on whether the country would take part in a developing a spearhead defense group within the European Union. That group would allow a handful of countries notably including France, Germany and Britain to carry on, unencumbered by the rest of the membership, with what the EU calls structured cooperation, be it procurement, strategy or the engagement of troops. British officials hold that there is nothing ominous about this for the trans-Atlantic relationship since Britain regards NATO as having clear primacy except where it is specifically transferred - a recent African operation run out of French national headquarters is an example - to wholly European auspices. And the officials say they will not accept a French-German initiative to create an operational planning headquarters for the EU separate from the North Atlantic Treaty Organization, a so-called red-line item for the Americans. Privately, the British assert that they reject the idea of those in France and Germany who would seek to manipulate the vanguard group to assert a European defense identity both decoupled from the United States and NATO and signaling an institutionalized separation between the trans-Atlantic allies. All the same, said an American official, regarding the situation far from London, the British had caved in on a key issue. From its previous resistance to structured cooperation as superfluous and divisive, he said, the Blair government had turned the concept into a fact. That would depend on developments, he went on, but I dont see it as a tectonic shift. But that hardly modulated the view of those who describe the developments in epochal terms. In the long run, all this will be seen as having been the thin end of the wedge. Its the beginning of a separation, said Julian Lindley-French, director for European security at the Geneva Center for Security Policy. Blair is absolutely not averse now to tweaking the tail of the American tiger. This, for Lindley-French, fit into the context of a British effort to assert a leadership role in the area of European defense. In this sense, he said, the discussion has nothing much to do with defense. For Bernard Jenkin, the shadow secretary of state for defense of the Conservative Party, the governments action breaches the fundamental undertaking Blair gave to Bush on Europes relation to America. If the government were really asserting NATOs primacy, he said, it would be asserting the primacy of the Berlin Plus accord weve agreed to which provides for separable but not separate EU forces. By Jenkins standard, the awful thing about structured cooperation is that you cant control the agenda and you lose your implicit threat of a veto within the EU. The gravitational pull toward Europe will be immensely strengthened. An informed French view hardly contradicted the emphasis on the significance of the turn. Franois Heisbourg, director of the Foundation for Strategic Research in Paris, reached back to the Suez crisis of 1956 to find a comparison for what he regards as the current movement for change in both London and Paris. Those orientations have now run out of potential for realistic decision-making in both countries, Heisbourg said. Following Iraq, he said, the British now wonder whether it will be wise to reflexively turn to Washington ahead of Europe in marking out their defense orientation. The British are clearly giving themselves the opportunity to look and debate. This attitude was accelerated, Heisbourg believed, by what he describes - without a trace of acknowledgment from the French government - as post-Iraq Frances realization that neither Europe nor European defense will be created in its own image. The British, Heisbourg thought, had recognized what he contends is this major shift in the French mind-set. For all these years, said Heisbourg, when we didnt like what the Europeans thought on defense, wed go off on our own. What you can say about the Europe to come is that it will be heavily un-French and that is the context in which we will work. In the coming months, it will be pushed into making its position publicly explicit. Because the EUs current Inter-Governmental Conference, meant to come up with a final version of an EU constitution, will involve debate on how defense decisions are made and on rules for vanguard groups, Britain will run the risk of confrontation with either the United States or Germany and France. To ensure that the vanguard defense group does not get out of its hands, the British are saying that all of its decisions will have to be unanimous ones. And to make certain that the group has a more Atlanticist tone than that of the four countries Belgium, Luxembourg, France and Germany which originally offered themselves up last April for the Tervuren initiative, the Blair government wants to see countries like Spain, Poland and the Netherlands join as participants. Operational planning, in the British view, would be accomplished within the NATO framework, or in the case of a specific European military undertaking, through the national headquarters of one of the vanguard groups members. All this, including what is described here as the French and Germans continued attachment to a visibly separate EU operational planning operation, makes for excruciatingly difficult choices for the Blair government in the relatively near term. With this in mind, the British say clearly that making Europe work is very much their wish, but not at any price. An impasse in relation to France and Germanys notions of European defense, they say, is a real possibility. Having eventually to back off from their new move in Europes direction would be a humiliating defeat for Blair and his European leadership ambitions.
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Because their elected leaders keep trying to trick them into thinking it might be true. This Sunday on NBCs Meet the Press, Tim Russert asked Vice President Dick Cheney whether he was surprised by that 69 percent statistic. No, said Cheney, I think its not surprising that people make that connection. When Russert followed up and asked whether such a connection in fact existed, Cheney said: We dont know. American intelligence and law enforcement have been investigating the Sept. But the point is that we have a great wealth of details about how the attacks came about. Theres simply no way to look at that mountain of evidence, both positive and negative, and honestly say we dont know. The vice president is just trying to bamboozle the public into thinking its an open question that Saddam might have been responsible because it helps the White House politically. After saying we dont know, Cheney went on to mention a handful of allegations about connections between Iraq and al Qaeda. And yet another, about alleged Iraqi ties to the 1993 World Trade Center attacks, is one that almost every expert believes is little better than a fantasy. Even if all of these claims were true, which, in the main, theyre not, none of them had any clear relationship to Sept. About that, the vice president said: The Czechs alleged that Mohammed Atta, the lead attacker, met in Prague with a senior Iraqi intelligence official five months before the attack. But weve never been able to develop any more of that yet, either in terms of confirming it or discrediting it. The original report that Atta met with a high-ranking Iraqi intelligence office gained widespread attention, and rightly so. Later, Czech President Vaclav Havel, a supporter of our war against Iraq, told the White House that subsequent investigations led the Czechs to believe that the story was not true. And United States law enforcement and intelligence investigations unearthed many pieces of documentary evidence that Atta was in the United States at the time of the alleged meeting. Now we even have numerous members of Iraqi intelligence in custody, including Ahmed Khalil Ibrahim Samir al-Ani, the intelligence agent Atta allegedly met. If the story were true someone should have spilled the beans by now. As al Qaeda expert Peter Bergen asked, when I interviewed him recently, Dont you think al-Ani knows his get-out-of-jail-free card to some degree is saying, Hey, I did meet with Mohammed Atta? Now, why have I gone to such lengths to make a point about this one thing Cheney said? Its the central issue in all of our foreign policy for the last two years: Was Saddam Hussein involved in the Sept.