10/11 Not that TV is a great source of news and facts, but it brought my
attention to the following issue covered by a BBC special when I
was in Hong Kong.
Do any of you (Bush supporters, especially) realize that we
have been kidnapping people (i.e. without proper extradite proceedings)
from over 3 continents and locking them up in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba,
without charging them with a crime, denying them access to lawyers,
without providing any judicial oversight whatsoever, and trying
them in a kangaroo court set up by a military commission?
\_ Soon everyone will know the TRU7H tnx to MIT:
http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99994246
\_ we don't really hear about this on mainstream news, but I can
assure you that everyone in Europe does.
What happened to the human rights that we've been talking about?
\_ Yes, I'm perfectly aware and didn't need to watch HK BBC to find
out like it's some BushCo Conspiracy to hide it from the American
people. As a "Bush supporter, specifically", my response is two
fold: 1) so what? 2) get your facts straight, there haven't been
any trials and there won't ever be.
--Evil BushCo Republican Conspirator
\_ so what? do you have a conscience? Guantanomo Bay is a legal
blackhole; 35+ have attempted suicide so far. We don't know what
is going on in there. There may even be a torture chamber. Do
you realize that the difference between terrorists and
non-terrorists lies not in their beliefs, but in the methods
with which they carry out their goals? If we deny them their
right to fair trial, if we end up torturing people who are
innocent, then what is the difference between US and THEM?
\_ What the US was *intended* to be and what it *is* and has
been since the 60's are very different places. Why pretend?
If you want the America the FF promised us "if we could keep
it" then you should be deeply disappointed in what you've
had for 40 years or more. G.Bay is just one more example of
the US involving itself in foreign affairs when we really
should have packed up our bags and left the rest of the world
to rot after WWII. Actually, this reminds me of a PC game
from the early 90s called "Balance of Power". After numerous
attempts to crush the Russians with aggresive foreign policy
which usually lead to my downfall or nuclear war, I racked up
an off the charts high score by pulling back all troops and
all foreign aid money from everywhere and doing nothing for
my 8 years in office. I wonder if the writers did that
intentionally or that's really the way the world is.... And
yes I know the world isn't a video game, so don't bother. It
was an aside.
\_ Embittered? No hope? Then take your nihilist punk ass out
back and blow your head off so the rest of us can get on
with trying to make the world a better place.
\_ I'm not at all embittered and certainly not a nihilist.
I'm a realist and I don't pretend that we still follow
the FF's ideals. This country is nothing like they
intended and never will be again so long as idealists
such as yourself only choose the bits and pieces of what
they wanted while discarding all those annoying bits
you don't like. It's an all or nothing deal and we've
already chosen nothing. Go read the Federalist Papers
and see how your world view dramatically differs from
the FF's. Punk ass? Suicide? Not even close. Someone
like you actually making the world a better place? That
is even less likely than me suiciding to "clear the way"
for you to fuck things up even more with your selective
minimalist version of the FF's dream and your arrogant
and obnoxious "I'm holier than thou and making the world
a better place!" bullshit. Tell me exactly what *you*
are personally doing to "make the world a better place"
and what you've accomplished so far besides sloganeering
and being a self righteous twit. --E. BC. C.
\_ Sure. Sign your csua user name, and I'll gladly
email you with my list of contributions.
\_ You should be proud of your great contribuations
to humanity. Please share with us all.
\_ Ah, I see that we are both of us trolls.
\_ No, I'm not. But since you are you can go
away now. Bye.
\_ What happened to proper use of English?
\_ aside from attacking my language skills, do you have
anything valid to say? or are you the type who thinks that
anything Bush does is righteous?
\_ Ok, how about some proof that we kidnapped anyone?
\_ Not only did we kidnap people, but rightfully so. Fuck
the terrorists. The ones in GB are lucky we didn't take
care of them the way the Russians do and start excuting
their family members. --Evil BushCo Conspirator
\_ what human rights have we been talking about? arguably,
some humans really should be treated like animals though.
but yeah, bush is a moron anyway.
\_ Might makes Right.
\_ That's always been true.
\_ Virtually all of those people in the camp somehow ended up
in US custody without legal extradite proceeding. So, by
UN convention, we are kidnapping them to Guantanamo Bay. Not even
American lawyers have access to them because GB is not considered
a soverign territory of the USA.
\_ Some body delete this thread before me Engrish become so bad.
\_ Censoring is english guantanmo bay hong news is yes, lah!
\_ Yes, we kidnapped them but not by UN anything. The UN is a
powerless and meaningless coffee chat parlor house and thank
god because the last thing the freedom loving West needs is
all those self appointed third world military dictators (who are
a majority in the UN) getting any real power on the world stage.
\_ there was a time I vividly remember when we blamed German citizens
who turned a blind eye towards what was going on in the
concentration camps. It's interesting that most of our own
citizens have turned a blind eye towards what is going on within
our own government while critizing other citizens for doing the
same thing.
\_ I didn't realise anyone here was old enough to remember the
1930s, much less remember them vividly. Seriously, I find your
comparison to Nazi Germany highly offensive. Rounding up a few
hundred foreign terrorists with criminal backgrounds is not in
any way comparable to the mass displacement, loss of property,
and finally mass murder of 6+ million Jews, plus countless
Gypsies and an unknown number of other German "undesirables".
Shame on you.
\_ Do you deny we have turned a blind eye to G.Bay, though?
We have absolutely NO IDEA what is happening there. We
don't know WHO is there. They have no legal recourse.
The comparison to Nazi Germany, while highly charged, has
a valid premise which you ignored.
\_ No, it doesn't and I didn't ignore it. It's sickening and
wrong as I said. But since you're so dense and have
apparently never seen the bodies or the 'survivors' of the
camps once the Allies showed up, I'll explain it to you:
In the Nazi camps, they took their own citizens by the
millions and those of 'undesirable' racial and other status
from surrounding conquered nations, took everything they
owned, put them in cattle cars where many died on their
way to the camps, shot a bunch of arrival until they
decided bullets were too good for them and 6 million
bullets would be very expensive so they gassed them to
death and tossed the bodies in ovens because burial is
time and space consuming and hey they were only jews and
other trash so who cares anyway. The 'survivors' such as
they were underwent horrendous medical 'experiments' akin
to what a cruel 5 year old does to captured butterflies,
except these were real people. Someone's mother, father,
someone's sister or brother, a son or daughter. They were
all someone' neighbor. Those who weren't cut open, burned,
frozen, poisoned, or murdered in some other way were left
staving down to skeletons. Most were so close to death
from starvation when the Allies showed they couldn't stand.
I have no sympathy for foreign criminal terrorists getting
rounded up and shot. I certainly have none for foreign
criminal terrorists who get rounded up and sent to summer
camp where they get coddled, are allowed to pray three
times a day, get tax payer funded Muslim holy men to visit
them, lead them in prayers, and oh yeah, betray this
country along the way. Your comparison is sickening and
I categorically deny there is any similarity whatosever
between the two cases. Shame on you twice for your
ignorance and your returning to insist on spreading your
ignorance a second time.
\_ Imagine just how much of all of this could have been
avoided if the people had stood up and denounced the
Nazi concentration camps. No, Camp X-ray is not a
a genocidal concentration camp. It is, however, a
denigration of human rights, and as such forms the
top of a slippery moral slope that could one day lead
to wholesale incarceration of a people simply because
of their race/creed. We have an opportunity to nip
this in the bud before it becomes more of an atrocity,
and we should do so.
\_ With rights comes responsibilities. People who go
around blowing shit up have yielded those rights.
I see no slippery slope. Any people or culture or
nation that won't defend itself from enemies without
or enemies within is doomed. By sitting on our
hands crying about the human rights of terrorists we
are committing suicide as a people.
\_ Agreed! But _alleged_ terrorists should have
the same rights to defend themselves against
the charges as any other accused criminal.
Prove that our system works by convicting the
terrorists in our criminal courts, or admit
that the system is flawed, reform it, and THEN
try them. Military tribunals and an opaque
basis for incarceration will not convince
anyone that we are right.
\_ Would you give someone a nice friendly public
trial if it meant the prosecution would have to
give up sources, witnesses, intelligence,
methods and other info that would allow your
enemy to keep you from successfully
infiltrating their groups and preventing
future attacks? I wouldn't. These aren't
standard civil criminal cases. We're at war.
The enemy is well funded, dispersed, lives
among us and our allies, hates us for what
we are and is willing to send their children
to die in the name of their god in an effort
to destroy us and convert the world to their
religion. I'll take a pass on the FBI style
civilian criminal justice trial, thanks.
\_ When the FBI busts a mafia figure, do
they have to give up everyone of their
sources to the public? I think not.
You're too quick to embrace breaching
the Bill of Rights in an attempt to
catch the baddies without looking at
the less-civil-rights-infringing
alternatives that already exist.
\_ Actually, yes, that's what the witness
protection program is all about.
\_ Ridiculous. This is not all of
their sources. A good deal remains
undercover.
\_ This is the kind of attitude that leads
to excess. Is there anything you would
not support in your endless, unwinnable
"war" against an invisible enemy that
lurks amongst us?
\_ People use this 'Orwell argument' a lot.
The trouble is, in Orwell's world, the
invisible enemy was made up. In our
case the invisible enemy is real.
Do you honestly believe all the happy
terrorist cells are made up by the
government so they can take your
liberties away? Yes it sucks, but this
is the price of being successful, people
will always be gunning after you and your
way of life.
\_ btw, you should use the word "hypocrisy" here. -MOTD GRAMMAR GOD |
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