Berkeley CSUA MOTD:Entry 10437
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2003/10/3-4 [Computer/SW/Languages/C_Cplusplus, Computer/SW/Languages/Java] UID:10437 Activity:nil
10/2    Java's cover:
        http://www.paulgraham.com/javacover.html
        \_ The sun internal memo is good reading as well. Lots of projects
           at sun (and elsewhere) that need to provide robust functionality
           in a small memory foot print have rejected java in favor of c
           or perl because of the reasons outlined in that memo. Java might
           have been a good idea but its implementation is terrible.
           \_ 99% of applications out there don't need a small memory footprint
              \_ The embedded market is huge. That's who they're talking about.
              \_ You would be surprised how many applications that run on
                 general purpose hardware/os need to have a small memory
                 footprint per instance (and/or thread). When you have to
                 handle hundreds of simultaneous requests, something that
                 takes 10 mb of memory to just stand up and another 50 or
                 so to run (per instance) puts a huge burden on them system.
                 I'm not even considering the io/cpu load that a java pgm
                 places on the system. You can also forget about writing
                 cli utilites with java, since the startup time for the vm
                 is long.
                 \_ 1. 60 megs is nothing these days.  Really.  My laptop has
                    a gig of memory.  Any server should have more.  And java
                    doesn't take that much memory on my system.  And if you
                    make the vm constantly resident (for such things as
                    servlets) the startup time isn't an issue.  Look I'm not
                    saying Java is the One True programing language, I'm
                    saying nothing is.  Different tools for different jobs.
                    Java is pretty good at what it does.  And for the embeded
                    market it has worked pretty well too.  I for one think
                    the whole language world is pretty stagnent right now
                    and someone needs to create a c++ killer that, gives
                    you total control over memory, enables you to be as fast
                    as C if you need it, and isn't the ugly piece of shit c++
                    is.  Hell maybe someone should stop trying to copy C
                    syntax and typing and come up with something new that
                    works.  But until then I'll make do with what is out there
                    and for some jobs Java works well, for some perl, and
                    for other C++.
                    \_ Out of curiosity, how many languages do you know?
                         -- ilyas
                     \_ I've done major projects with c/c++, perl, and
                        java.  I have played around with lots of others:
                        python, smalltalk, ruby, eifle, ocaml, objective c,
                        and others I've forgotten about.  I'd love to do
                        a serious project in any of those, but I've never
                        had a reason to.  And as I've said, I'd really like
                        to see a good C replacement type language for doing
                        stuff C/C++ should be used for (which sadly is a lot
                        less than it IS used for.)
                        \_ I am an ocaml fan.  I think you can use ocaml for
                           most stuff people use c++ for these days, except
                           maybe some kinds of system work.  I like lisp too.
                           People think of lisp as slow, but it's not.  -- ilyas
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www.paulgraham.com/javacover.html
Javas Cover April 2001 This article developed out of conversations Ive had with several other programmers about why Java smelled suspicious. I thought it might be interesting to try and write down what made Java seem suspect to me. Some people whove read this think its an interesting attempt to write about something that hasnt been written about before. Others say I will get in trouble for appearing to be writing about things I dont understand. So, just in case it does any good, let me clarify that Im not writing here about Java which I have never used but about hackers radar which I have thought about a lot. The aphorism you cant tell a book by its cover originated in the times when books were sold in plain cardboard covers, to be bound by each purchaser according to his own taste. But publishing has advanced since then: present-day publishers work hard to make the cover something you can tell a book by. I spend a lot of time in bookshops and I feel as if I have by now learned to understand everything publishers mean to tell me about a book, and perhaps a bit more. The time I havent spent in bookshops Ive spent mostly in front of computers, and I feel as if Ive learned, to some degree, to judge technology by its cover as well. It may be just luck, but Ive saved myself from a few technologies that turned out to be real stinkers. Ive never written a Java program, never more than glanced over reference books about it, but I have a hunch that it wont be a very successful language. In the original Java white paper, Gosling explicitly says Java was designed not to be too difficult for programmers used to C. It was designed to be another C: C plus a few ideas taken from more advanced languages. Like the creators of sitcoms or junk food or package tours, Javas designers were consciously designing a product for people not as smart as them. Historically, languages designed for other people to use have been bad: Cobol, PL/I, Pascal, Ada, C. The good languages have been those that were designed for their own creators: C, Perl, Smalltalk, Lisp. The last time the DoD really liked a programming language, it was Ada. Bear in mind, this is not a critique of Java, but a critique of its cover. This is just an explanation of why I dont find that Im eager to learn it. It may seem cavalier to dismiss a language before youve even tried writing programs in it. You have to learn to judge by outward signs which will be worth your time. I have likewise cavalierly dismissed Cobol, Ada, Visual Basic, the IBM AS400, VRML, ISO 9000, the SET protocol, VMS, Novell Netware, and CORBA, among others. It could be that a language promoted by one big company to undermine another, designed by a committee for a mainstream audience, hyped to the skies, and beloved of the DoD, happens nonetheless to be a clean, beautiful, powerful language that I would love programming in.