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| 7/10 |
| 2003/9/23-24 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China] UID:10295 Activity:moderate |
9/23 Myth of pre-Chinese Tibetan "utopia"
http://www.swans.com/library/art9/mparen01.html
\_ yeah, its much better now. The Chinses are killing monks,
burning monastaries, destroying religious texts, forcably
sterilizing Tibetan women, taking children as political
prisoners, and relocating Han Chinese to populate the regon.
\_ Likely you didn't even follow the link. I'm in agreement
with you mostly - Chinese rule is no picnic. However, Westerners
love to romanticize pre-China tibet and in particular the
Dalai Lama, when the reality is much more complicated.
\_ It is hard to be worse than what it was like under the rule
of the Lama. As for destroying monasteries, see below.
\_ Wow, really? The lamas were genociding their own
people? Have you published this shocking new historical
discovery? This is PhD quality history research! Whoa!
The lamas were butchers... who ever woulda thunk it?
\_ Just because it sucked before doesn't mean it's ok for the
communists to move in and turn it into a communist anti-
utopia. It's both worse now and oppressive. BTW, they
stopped destroying monasteries decades ago after destroying
the first 5,000 of them. With only a few dozen left, it
doesn't matter anymore.
\_ Likeley you have NO idea I followed the link, bozo.
Yes, Old tibet is not utopia, but current tibet is
a total tradegy. have some compassion.
\_ Modern tibet is probably much like previous
incarnations of Tibet. The Tibetian problem has
\_ Are you HIGH?
always been Sinoistic in nature. Tibet and China
share a common history, and relations have always
entangled. Westerners should be wise to learn the
true nature of the issues before proclaiming their
one-sided views on subjects they have no true idea
about. Tibet, like Iraq, like Palestine, has no
easy questions to profer, and no easy answers.
\_ I love it when someone refers to systematic genocide
as "The <insert victim race here> Problem". The Tibetan
Problem. The Jewish Problem. The Kurdish Problem. The
Native Problem. It goes on. Add your favorites.
\_ systematic eradication of a culture is indefensible.
The Chinese burned all the Tibetan artifacts they
could find. They slaughtered all the monks in Tibet.
They forcibly moved in a Chinese population in order
to breed out the Tibetan culture. How do you explain
that in the context of history?
\_ The central governement was singularly lenient when
it comes to Tibetan insurgency. The current Dalai
Lama and his huge entourage was essentially allowed
to go when they were totally surrounded. Despite
repeated uprising by armed monks (a buddhist
oxymoron), they were not systematically executed,
although I would not envy their position. The ethnic
tibetan red guards did most of the desrution of
cultural treasures, thinking rightly that their
once rich culrture has so far fallen behind the
outside world (more so than say Afghanistan) but
wrongly that they could leap forward by destroying
what they already had. In fact the Chinese army
were the one who prevented the destruction of the
major sites during the cultural revolution.
\_ That's actually pretty interesting. Do you have
any URL's/references that I can follow up on during
my free time? TIA. -mice
\_ He can't provide any sources not from the
communists. It's complete bullshit.
\_ There is a book in Chinese called "Sky Burial
- xxxxx" where xxxxx I have forgotten. Prob.
no English translation exists, since a book
that does not whooly condemens the Chinese
has a hard time getting published in the west.
To the "China Bad" people, a book being written
by a Han Chinese is automatically discredited
unless the author is a card carrying dissident,
which in this case is kind of true. He has been
arrested before. I do not really like his
analysis or prose but at least he
tries to do a research of the facts and ends up
offending everyone. Actually if one is willing
to be rational for a second, it is obvious what
kind of a place where people send their children
to become monks must be the exact opposite of
a paradise. The propanganda of the Chinese
government regarding the extreme sad state of
Tibet before Dalai ran away is basically true,
but of course they like to neglect the many
blunders they committed in Tibet and elsewhere
that costed many many lives. Though it is
nothing the government'd be proud to advertise,
Tibet is one of the places where situation did
not become worse than before even during the
worst years of Mao's rule. Anyway, both the
truth and the half truth are less appealing
than the fairy/horror tale + hollywood preaching
of the Lama. BTW, I visited Tibet twice.
There is tension there but nothing too serious.
In terms of ethnicity, it's going the way of
the US sans genocide (of Indians). That
is the worst possibility except for all the
others, human being human.
\_ Goes to show ya, history is written by the
victors/conquerors.
\_ Ok, that's all nice but you still haven't
provided the tiniest shred of proof. This is
communist propaganda and nothing more. To
say that it's hard to get anything published
in the West is so laughable as to be beyond
absurd. Hello? Duh? We don't have the
censorship here that your beloved communists
inflict on their people on a daily basis.
I'll only respond to one other point, the
idea that there's little tension in Tibet:
of course by this point that could be true.
The communists murdered, imprisoned, or
exiled 99% of the resistence. One of my
professors visited 10 years ago and reported
share a common history, and relations have always
entangled. Westerners should be wise to learn the
that by that time the communists had shipped
in so many non-Tibetans that there really
was no serious hope of ever restoring what
little is left of Tibetan culture. So I say
to you, congratulations on your communist
hero's successful genocide of another people.
\_ What was so complicated? There was Tibet. There was
China. China invaded Tibet. End of story.
\_ You could go on to say there was alway US., there was
always Tibet. But if you really want to use your head
and learn something real, you should know that
Tibetan was an automonous region within Chinese
dynasties, which is sort of like a federated system.
Then they wanted to break away when the central
government was under siege from all sides. The rest
is history. Yes, the military operation and followup
restoration was harsh, but it is brutal in the sense
that the US civil war and the consequent years of
restoration was harsh, and probably more so in
relative scale. Anyway, Dalai Lama's bid for
independence had all to do with personal ambition of
a sector of a tiny but rutheless ruling elite, taken
advantage of by foreign powers (Britan, Russian, then
India and US), than the welfare of the people or their
religious faith. Alas it was a failed gamble and has
terrible consequency for all people of China, Tibetans
or otherwise, except those "refugees" who live a
pampered life on the Swiss alps and his holiness
who has become an icon and idol like a rock star.
\_ You confuse central control of government with
cultural genocide. The average peasant doesn't
care, nor need to care, who they pay their taxes
to. They do and should care when someone is
killing them en masse, destroyed 5000+ of their
true nature of the issues before proclaiming their
one-sided views on subjects they have no true idea
about. Tibet, like Iraq, like Palestine, has no
easy questions to profer, and no easy answers.
\_ What was so complicated? There was Tibet. There was
China. China invaded Tibet. End of story.
~5050 temples, imprisoned, killed, or exiled all
of their leaders who wouldn't submit and has
imported (like cattle) more foreigners than your
own native headcount all in an outrageous and
blatant effort to obliterate your people from the
face of the earth. Taxes is politics. What the
communists have done and have almost completed is
pure genocide.
\_ Ahem, there's no such thing as "Palestine". Talk about
learning your history, you'd be wise to do the same.
\_ Have you been to Tibet? You might want to learn:
http://www.tibet.com/WhitePaper
point, try:
\_ A very one-sided view. For a more balanced view-
point, try:
\_ What was so complicated? There was Tibet. There was
The Snow Lion and the Dragon: China, Tibet, and the
Dalai Lama by Melvyn C. Goldstein.
http://tinyurl.com/ofvw
China. China invaded Tibet. End of story.
\_ Ahem, there's no such thing as "Palestine". Talk about
\_ This site uses the fact that China does not have
effective control of Tibet from 1911 to 1951 as
evidence for Tibetan independence then, and argument for
learning your history, you'd be wise to do the same.
\_ Have you been to Tibet? You might want to learn:
http://www.tibet.com/WhitePaper
The Snow Lion and the Dragon: China, Tibet, and the
Dalai Lama by Melvyn C. Goldstein.
http://tinyurl.com/ofvw
\_ This site uses the fact that China does not have
effective control of Tibet from 1911 to 1951 as
evidence for Tibetan independence, conveniently
ignoring the fact that China was fragmented from 1911,
with warlords, KMT, CCP, Imperial Japan, Russians,
Western colonialists all vying for a share of the pie,
with no single government controlling the country,
that is until the commies reunited the nation.
\_ Do we have a single ChiCom troll, or multiple ones? -John
\_ Bringing Chinese-rule to Tibet!
\_ Bring Tibetan rule to China!
Tibetan independence now, conveniently ignoring the
fact that China was fragmented from 1911 until the
middle of the twentieth century, with warlords, KMT,
CCP, Imperial Japan, Russians, Western colonialists
all vying for a share of the pie, and with no single
governing entity controlling the country,
that is, until the commies reunited the nation.
\_ I've already addressed enough of your communist
propaganda. See my above about taxes vs genocide.
\_ Do we have a single ChiCom troll, or multiple ones? -John
\_ Kill the Communist Bandits!
\_ There's at least two unless there is one who has greatly
improved his English skills in the last 6 weeks.
\_ Bringing Chinese-rule to Tibet!
\_ Bring Tibetan rule to China!
\_ US out of North America!
\_ Tibet illustrates the failure of pacifist ideology:
Pacifist cultures get smushed by non-pacifist ones. |
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| www.swans.com/library/art9/mparen01.html Swans Commentary: Friendly Feudalism: The Tibet Myth, by Michael Parenti - mparen01 Swans Friendly Feudalism: The Tibet Myth by Michael Parenti July 7, 2003 Throughout the ages there has prevailed a distressing symbiosis between religion and violence. The histories of Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, and Islam are heavily laced with internecine vendettas, inquisitions, and wars. Again and again, religionists have claimed a divine mandate to terrorize and massacre heretics, infidels, and other sinners. Some people have argued that Buddhism is different, that it stands in marked contrast to the chronic violence of other religions. But a glance at history reveals that Buddhist organizations throughout the centuries have not been free of the violent pursuits so characteristic of other religious groups. The Snow Lion and the Dragon: China, Tibet, and the Dalai Lama Berkeley: University of California Press, 1995, 6-16. The Dalai Lamas Tibet, they believe, was a spiritually oriented kingdom, free from the egotistical lifestyles, empty materialism, pointless pursuits, and corrupting vices that beset modern industrialized society. Western news media, and a slew of travel books, novels, and Hollywood films have portrayed the Tibetan theocracy as a veritable Shangri-La and the Dalai Lama as a wise saint, the greatest living human, as actor Richard Gere gushed. In the thirteenth century, Emperor Kublai Khan created the first Grand Lama, who was to preside over all the other lamas as might a pope over his bishops. Several centuries later, the Emperor of China sent an army into Tibet to support the Grand Lama, an ambitious 25-year-old man, who then gave himself the title of Dalai Ocean Lama, ruler of all Tibet. Here is a historical irony: the first Dalai Lama was installed by a Chinese army. To elevate his authority beyond worldly challenge, the first Dalai Lama seized monasteries that did not belong to his sect, and is believed to have destroyed Buddhist writings that conflicted with his claim to divinity. The Timely Rain: Travels in New Tibet New York: Monthly Review Press, 1964, 119. Indeed, it is often the economic exploitation that necessitates the violence. Until 1959, when the Dalai Lama last presided over Tibet, most of the arable land was still organized into religious or secular manorial estates worked by serfs. Even a writer like Pradyumna Karan, sympathetic to the old order, admits that a great deal of real estate belonged to the monasteries, and most of them amassed great riches. The wealth of the monasteries went to the higher-ranking lamas, many of them scions of aristocratic families, while most of the lower clergy were as poor as the peasant class from which they sprang. This class-determined economic inequality within the Tibetan clergy closely parallels that of the Christian clergy in medieval Europe. A notable example was the commander-in-chief of the Tibetan army, who owned 4,000 square kilometers of land and 3,500 serfs. Tied to the land, they were allotted only a small parcel to grow their own food. Serfs and other peasants generally went without schooling or medical care. They spent most of their time laboring for the monasteries and individual high-ranking lamas, or for a secular aristocracy that numbered not more than 200 wealthy families. In effect, they were owned by their masters who told them what crops to grow and what animals to raise. They could not get married without the consent of their lord or lama. A serf might easily be separated from his family should the owner send him to work in a distant location. Serfs could be sold by their masters, or subjected to torture and death. Landowners had legal authority to capture and forcibly bring back those who tried to flee. A 24-year old runaway serf, interviewed by Anna Louise Strong, welcomed the Chinese intervention as a liberation. During his time as a serf he claims he was not much different from a draft animal, subjected to incessant toil, hunger, and cold, unable to read or write, and knowing nothing at all. He tells of his attempts to flee: The first time the landlords men caught me running away, I was very small, and they only cuffed me and cursed me. The third time I was already fifteen and they gave me fifty heavy lashes, with two men sitting on me, one on my head and one on my feet. They were taxed upon getting married, taxed for the birth of each child, and for every death in the family. They were taxed for planting a new tree in their yard, for keeping domestic or barnyard animals, for owning a flower pot, or putting a bell on an animal. There were taxes for religious festivals, for singing, dancing, drumming, and bell ringing. People were taxed for being sent to prison and upon being released. Those who could not find work were taxed for being unemployed, and if they traveled to another village in search of work, they paid a passage tax. When people could not pay, the monasteries lent them money at 20 to 50 percent interest. Debtors who could not meet their obligations risked being placed into slavery for as long as the monastery demanded, sometimes for the rest of their lives. The poor and afflicted were taught that they had brought their troubles upon themselves because of their foolish and wicked ways in previous lives. Hence they had to accept the misery of their present existence as an atonement and in anticipation that their lot would improve upon being reborn. The rich and powerful of course treated their good fortune as a reward for - and tangible evidence of - virtue in past and present lives. Torture and Mutilation in Shanghri-La In the Dalai Lamas Tibet, torture and mutilation - including eye gouging, the pulling out of tongues, hamstringing, and amputation of arms and legs - were favored punishments inflicted upon thieves, runaway serfs, and other criminals. Journeying through Tibet in the 1960s, Stuart and Roma Gelder interviewed a former serf, Tsereh Wang Tuei, who had stolen two sheep belonging to a monastery. For this he had both his eyes gouged out and his hand mutilated beyond use. He explains that he no longer is a Buddhist: When a holy lama told them to blind me I thought there was no good in religion. In 1959, she visited an exhibition of torture equipment that had been used by the Tibetan overlords. There were handcuffs of all sizes, including small ones for children, and instruments for cutting off noses and ears, and breaking off hands. For gouging out eyes, there was a special stone cap with two holes in it that was pressed down over the head so that the eyes bulged out through the holes and could be more readily torn out. There were instruments for slicing off kneecaps and heels, or hamstringing legs. There were hot brands, whips, and special implements for disembowling. Waddell, wrote that the Tibetan people were under the intolerable tyranny of monks and the devil superstitions they had fashioned to terrorize the people. In 1904 Perceval Landon described the Dalai Lamas rule as an engine of oppression and a barrier to all human improvement. At about that time, another English traveler, Captain WFT OConnor, observed that the great landowners and the priests . The 1951 treaty provided for ostensible self-government under the Dalai Lamas rule but gave China military control and exclusive right to conduct foreign relations. The Chinese were also granted a direct role in internal administration to promote social reforms. At first, they moved slowly, relying mostly on persuasion in an attempt to effect change. Among the earliest reforms they wrought was to reduce usurious interest rates, and build some hospitals and roads. Mao Zedung and his Communist cadres did not simply want to occupy Tibet. They desired the Dalai Lamas cooperation in transforming Tibets feudal economy in accordance with socialist goals. Even Melvyn Goldstein, who is sympathetic to the Dalai Lama and the cause of Tibetan independence, allows that contrary to popular belief in the West, the Chinese pursued a policy of moderation. They took care to show respect for Tibetan culture and religion and allowed the old feudal and monastic systems to continue unchanged. Bet... |
| www.tibet.com/WhitePaper -> www.tibet.com/WhitePaper/ Tibet: Proving Truth from Facts. Tibet: Proving Truth from Facts Preface Executive Summary Status of Tibet Invasion and illegal annexation of Tibet: 1949-1951 National Uprising Traditional society and democratic framework for future Tibet Human Rights Socio-economic conditions and colonialism Religion and national identity Population transfer and control State of Tibets environment Militarisation and regional peace Quest for solution Homepage This site is maintained and updated by The Office of Tibet, the official agency of His Holiness the Dalai Lama in London. This Web page may be linked to any other Web sites. Contents may not be altered. Last updated: 30-Sept-96. |
| tinyurl.com/ofvw -> www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0520219511?v=glance Wouldnt it be nice if we could simply inspect the historical record and resolve the question of whether or not Tibet has traditionally been a part of China? Melvyn Goldstein, anthropologist and Tibet specialist, takes us in that direction in The Snow Lion and the Dragon . Like a scientist analyzing experimental data, Goldstein walks us through centuries of unending political struggle and battles of conquest. He shows us that Tibet first came under Chinese suzerainty during the Mongolian era and then for almost 300 years during the Manchu era. For the most part, The Snow Lion and the Dragon succeeds as chronicle of the power plays of two governments vying for control of Tibet. But when Goldstein speaks of the Chinese government, what does he mean by Chinese? Does he mean the Mongols when they controlled the territory we call China and the Manchus when they did? Although Goldstein is sincere in his objective methods, many questions such as these lurk behind the illusion objectivity. Ultimately, history is interpretation, and without admitting this, Goldstein lures the reader into a false sense of complacency. The Snow Lion and the Dragon is a helpful historical summary for anyone who wonders how the Tibet Question has played itself out from the beginning up until 1997, but for an adequate examination of historical subtleties surrounding the issue, we must continue to wait. Pico Iyer, New York Review of Books A rigorously unsentimental account. Book Description Tensions over the political status of Tibet are escalating every day. The Dalai Lama has gained broad international sympathy in his appeals for autonomy from China, yet the Chinese government maintains a hard-line position against it. In this thoughtful analysis, distinguished professor and longtime Tibet analyst Melvyn C. Goldstein presents a balanced view of the conflict as well as a proposal for the future. Clearly written and carefully argued, this book will become the definitive source for anyone seeking to understand the Tibet Question during this dangerous turning point in its turbulent history. There is no easy solution to an issue as complicated and intricate as the Tibetan Problem. As much as I abhor the human right abuses in Tibet which the author does too, apparently, I agree with Prof. Goldstein that the Chinese are really those who hold the trump card. I believe that if the exile government were to accept some sort of comprimise that will actually allow them to work INSIDE Tibet, their chance of achieving a genuine autonomy and preserving the Tibetan culture will be much enhanced, at least from a long term perspective. Important as the much publicized demographical change in Tibet is, one cannot neglect the elements of materialism that is continuously being brought into Tibet. As a friend of mine from China pointed out half mockingly, all that the communists have to do is to build more entertainment establishments to promote indulgence of sense pleasure among the younger generation. That in itself will be a huge blow to the preservation of a genuine Tibetan culture. Thirty years from now, if the exiled are still in exile, the situation will be grim. Goldstein pointed out, many opportunities for continuous negotiation had been squandered by misjudgement and misperception on both sides, I pray that when the door of negotiation is reopened, more subtantial results will be made. The last review has completely misunderstood the book, and I think I need to point this out so future readers wont continue to misread it. First, Goldstein never advocates the PRCs view that China should control Tibet. Anytime I have tried to explain the Chinese position people have confused it with mine which is quite different, as is Goldsteins. Goldstein has tried to write a history of how the two sides have agreed, compromised, misunderstood each other and fought each other. The historical question has been taken seriously by the Tibetan Government in Exile see Shakabpas history, which takes the historical relations very seriously and relevant to the question of independence, the PRC and Western Nations. Because the players involved take it seriously, Goldstein must address this. Second, the age of the horse and the age of the TV isnt an argument. The Republic of Taiwan still claims Tibet, and the Dalai Lama has agreed to this claim as Goldstein points out; The Dalai Lama wishes to preserve his culture, so he must deal directly with the PRC. To think otherwise is to wish away a reality something Buddhists are good at. In the end, Goldstein is merely outlining what each side wants, and what he thinks the Dalai Lama should do to achieve his goals. Even if communism ended in China and the Dalai Lamas laughable argument that communism has a half-life is being disproved in the former Soviet republics, the 900 million Han would still believe that Tibet is theirs. Only the utter collapse of China and a Tibetan revolution could grant independence. The question is, what can the friends of Tibet do to preserve Tibets culture in the face of unlikely independence? Maybe the reviewer in Santa Fe could start running guns from Kazakstan. All Customer Reviews Average Customer Review: Write an online review and share your thoughts with other customers. In our own time, Tibet has been a de facto province of China since 1951. Where was the moral character of the US Congress and the executive branch of our government when China began its pacification of Tibet? Goldstein gives the American public at least those who bother to read serious work a dose of morale corruption that our government lives by, and a sense of the complexity of international affairs, which we as a people, have always played a bit to lightly. Although I dont doubt the authors sincerity in trying to analyze the Tibetan question objectively by looking at the facts, I think he failed to see that the facts arent the whole truth. In addition, Chinese sovereignty means one thing in the age of horses, and quite another in the age of the airplane and TV. Finally, I think the author glosses over the patent attempts at cultural genocide by the Chinese: surely the Tibetan religious/political regime which was an ad hoc solution in the first place was in need of reform, but what course that takes should be for the Tibetans to decide; I find it hard to believe that the Chinese killed thousands of monks and nuns, and forced thousands of Tibetans into exile, out of purely humanitarian motives! The reviewer questions first whether it is a genuine historical study, and second suggests the work has racist notions. To the first question, Goldstein cites historians including, yes, ESperling who are trained in both Tibetan and Chinese source material. Second, the reviewers claim that treating the Qing and Yuan Dynasties as different than, say, the Ming is racist, commenting, Are America sic with black/native American/and sic Hispanic president sic and congress a legitimate American government? This ignores of course the fact that the United States is a democracy while Qing and Yuan China were Chinas ruled by alien conquerors. Both the PRC and the Republic of China Taiwan claim the political boundries of the Qing State except the PRC recognizes the Republic of Mongolia while the Republic of China does not; When Mao Zedong invaded Tibet in 1950 and incorporated it as an autonomous region within the Peoples Republic of China , he effectively ended twelve hundred years of Tibetan independence. The exile government of the Dalai Lama, Tibets spiritual and political leader, has been working since then to garner Western support for the restoration of independent Tibet, or at least a favorable set of conditions for the return of the Dalai Lama to Tibet. The Dalai Lama became the political leader of Tibet in 1642, when the Mongol emperor Gushri Khan made the fifth Dalai Lama the supreme authority in Tibet. This ensured that the Geluk Buddhist sect, which the Dalai Lama led, would become the preeminent sect in Tibet. Relations between Tibet and China fluctuated as the Qing emperors attempted several times to gain control pf Tibet. After the fall of the Qing dynasty in 1912, ... |