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| 2010/4/12-5/10 [Reference/Tax] UID:53782 Activity:moderate |
4/12 My gf did her taxes. She was unemployed most of last year and only
paid about $500 in federal tax. She is getting a refund of $1300.
We are both rather annoyed at this. How can you get a refund of
more than you paid in?! (This is a rhetorical question. I know
how.) Another acquaintance of mine makes less than half of what I
do, but her take home is only 20% less. Even though I put money into
my 401k (to shelter the income) and have a mortgage interest deduction
(she does not itemize) she just got a huge refund. I got a (little)
bill. I paid about 15x in taxes what she paid. I cannot believe there
are goobers who want to raise taxes. 50% of people aren't paying any
as it is! You want to raise my taxes? Eliminate some bogus credits
first! Those with more income should shoulder more of the bill,
but these free rides are ridiculous. You can't have half of the
country not only not paying taxes, but getting refunds on top of it!
"The bottom 40 percent, on average, make a profit from the federal
income tax, meaning they get more money in tax credits than they
would otherwise owe in taxes. For those people, the government
sends them a payment."
\_ It's call the erosion the middle class.
\_ I made several billion less than GE and apparently paid more
US taxes than they did: http://tinyurl.com/y5tpaoy
\_ Did you also put 323,000 people to work, paying payroll
taxes for all of them and likely millions in sales taxes
and other taxes? If you did then I'm in favor of refunding
any income tax you paid.
\_ It's called the erosion the middle class.
Really rich makes the rules, or at minimum, controls how
the rules are applied, so they don't pay all that much into
the system. No matter, the system is designed to fall
apart eventually because with enough discouragement of the
right thing to do, no one will do the right thing. No
empire lasts forever. As the joke goes, "make your time..."
I only tolerate it because I think of it as paying for my
Mom's benefits in a very indirect way. If you don't have
anyone in your family who can draw from the broken system,
what can I say. Switch to cash business, hide it away, and
retire as soon as possible and become part of the leeches.
I plan to retire fairly early and stop participating in the
broken system, as much as I can, anyway.
\_ Look what I found through Google:
http://www.taxfoundation.org/news/show/1410.html
"These findings raise serious questions about the future of
the U.S. income tax system...."
\_ If you include all taxes, not just income tax, everyone pays
taxes. Overll tax rates including FICA and Sales tax are pretty
flat above about the bottom quintile. Income tax is pretty
progressive (high earners pay more) but most other taxes are
regressive (poor people pay more, as a percentage).
\_ percentage of income, or
percentage of the
particular service or good
or whatever subject to
that tax?
\_ http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/14/business/economy/14leonhardt.html
\- leonhardt should have also mentioned the giant mortage
interest dedection [~$100bn]. do you think the OP is
stupid or disingenuous?
\_ Is that a rhetorical question?
\_ Rebuttal to some points he makes:
1. I wouldn't call myself "very wealthy". I think the perception
of who is "very wealthy" has changed. I am middle-class,
_maybe_ upper middle class if I lived somewhere less expensive.
Let's be realistic. People who make over $52100 are not
all "wealthy". Saying that $52100 is the statistical
middle class may be true, but you cannot live a
traditional middle class lifestyle on that salary in any
urban part of the country. That doesn't mean people who
make less should pay no tax and it doesn't mean that
people who make more should shoulder the burden of all of
the tax revenue. If you make $100000 per year you are not
John D. Rockefeller.
\_ You can live a middle class lifestyle on $52k/yr in most
of the country. Just not in expensive areas. That is quite
a bit of money in San Antonio, for instance.
2. "It will have to raise taxes even more than it otherwise
would on everybody else. Or it will have to find deep cuts
in Medicare, Social Security, military spending and the
other large (generally popular) federal programs."
I would lobby for either of these options. I think some
deep cuts need to be made and I also think that people
in the bottom 50% need to start paying more than they do
now, even if that means the top 50% also sees an increase.
One cannot just raise taxes on the top 50%. Everyone has
to share in the pain and right now that's just not true.
3. Focusing on payroll taxes is a distraction unless you
own a company. This is not money coming out of my (or
your) pocket. In fact, this is another way of saying that
the wealthy (who own the companies) are also bankrolling
other benefits for the poor. State tax is a red herring. Some
states have none at all and we can choose to move there if we
wish. Mortgage deduction is also irrelevant. If the bottom
50% had huge mortgage deductions they would still pay 0 (or
get a refund). It's just a way for homeowners to keep from
getting _really_ reamed compared to the bottom percentiles.
Without it the gap would be even worse.
\_ you're a (wordy) idiot.
\_ Nice rebuttal. You obviously have no counter.
\_ you obviously have no clue, so why bother?
\_ Pathetic.
\_ You don't understand what "payroll taxes" are. This is
another name for FICA, which everyone pays, though it is
only taxed on the first $100k or so of income.
\_ Everyone pays less than _half_ of. (Example: only
the employer contributes to FUTA). Further, money that
"you pay" (the other half) is mandated by law to be
withheld by your employer. Since it is mandatory
and it comes out of your paychecks (and not out of,
say, your capital gains on stock or other income
you make outside of your employment) you could make a
good argument that it's really your employer paying all
of it. This is slightly different from income taxes
(which you pay out of your salary also) because with
income taxes some people pay more and others pay less
depending on their situation. So that's money that, if
your tax situation allows, you may get to keep. Not so
with payroll taxes (unless you switch jobs in the middle
of a year and overpay). It's never really "yours" to
begin with unless you are an independent
contractor/business owner. For example, I cannot lower
my FICA withholding, invest it for the year, make a
profit on it, and pay the amount due at the end of
the year. So how is this money really "mine"? What
it is is money paid by my employer on my behalf.
\_ It's yours because it comes out of *your* salary.
When someone gives you a job offer and says you'll
be paid $100K/year, you will claim your salary is
$100K/year, it will go down as $100K/year on your
tax forms, but the amount you get to spend is
less FICA. Sales tax is mandatory, too, that doesn't
mean it's money paid on your behalf by the business
you're buying from.
Returning to: you're an idiot.
\_ Semantics. It's your employer paying it. As
I said, you have no chance of retaining your
_half_. Sales tax is not at all mandatory in any
way. I can live a lifestyle in which I pay no
sales tax at all or I can end up paying 100%
of my salary in sales tax depending on my
situation and my choices. Not so with "payroll
taxes". Instead of calling me names, realize
that "you" are not paying these payroll taxes.
These are employer contributions in your name
under the guise of salary.
\_ Guess what: If you don't have a salary, you
don't pay payroll tax.
\_ True. This is just another way of saying
that employers always pay for it. If
you don't have an employer, you don't
pay it. Ever. Not so with income tax or
sales tax. The evidence is strong that
this is a tax employers pay. Employees
may pay it in legal terms, but the
reality is that employers pay it all
unless you are an independent contractor,
which 90+% of people are not.
\_ There is no such thing as "employer
paying for ***" as they'll just pass
the cost to the employee. There is no
such thing as free beer. !op
\_ I would argue the opposite. There
is no such thing as "employee
paying for ***" as it is because
of the employer that the employee
has any money at all. Of course,
the employer also relies on
employees, but it's much easier
to find a janitor to work at Microsoft
than to found Microsoft.
\_ Do you think your employer pays
for your health care because it
comes out of your paycheck? How
about unemployment?
\_ How do you get the money to pay
for it if not from your
employer? And if you quit
your job you will stop
paying unemployment and
_really_ start paying for
your health care in earnest.
\_ What kind of insane logic
is that? You got the money
from your employer, therefore
your employer paid for it?
Your employer gives you
a *salary*. That salary
belongs to *you*. Deductions
from that salary are things
that *you are paying for*,
just as surely as if you
spent the money on a
cheeseburger. -tom
\_ Some deductions, yes.
Others, no. You are
forced to pay for
unemployment insurance.
In fact, not only are
you forced, but your
employer hands the
money over for you. You
are not forced to buy a
cheeseburger. If my
employer took out $3
of my salary every
month and gave me a
cheeseburger instead
and I could not
change this then I
would say that my
employer bought me a
cheeseburger, not
that he paid me $3
with which I bought a
cheeseburger. I
might be vegetarian
and I don't even want
that cheeseburger. I
just want my $3 to go
buy a nice salad, but
no dice. So how is
that $3 mine? In the
case of health
insurance, I can opt
out of that and go
get my own if I wish,
but most employers heavily
subsidize health
insurance and if you
opt out you do not
get their subsidy in
cash, although I worked
somewhere where I did.
\_ Let me put it this way:
if tomorrow they
stopped requiring
employees to pay
unemployment taxes,
I'm pretty sure you'd
expect the money saved
to go to you rather
than your employer.
Because it's part
of your salary. -tom
\_ I see your point.
Do you see mine?
If you quit your job
to live off of
your large
inheritance do you
still owe the
payroll tax?
How can that be
if you're the
one that owes
it and pays it?
It's a payment
on your behalf.
If it's no longer
mandated you may
see a gain at first,
but I would argue it
would be mostly
competed away
long-term as people
were willing to work
for just a little
more take home than
before even if
it means a smaller
salary. E.g., Joe
who made $50K and
took home $40K
(but now takes
home $50K) is now
finding his job at
risk from the new
college grad willing
to work for $45K (and
take home $45K).
The new equilibrium
will see some of the
windfall with the
employer and some
with the employee
calling into
question whose it
was to begin with.
\_ there's really
no question
whose it is.
The fact that
you can avoid
payroll tax by
not being on
payroll doesn't
mean that someone
else is paying
it. You can
avoid sales tax
by not buying
anything, but
when you buy
something, you're
still paying
sales tax. -tom |
| 2010/4/12-5/10 [Uncategorized] UID:53783 Activity:nil |
4/12 Is the free MS Security Essentials any good? |