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| 2009/1/28-2/1 [Recreation/Dating, Politics/Domestic/Election] UID:52480 Activity:nil |
1/28 the baby borg episode of star trek:voyager is so sad!
\_ Jeri Ryan's firm rear end gave us Obama. God bless her.
\_ What about the front?
\_ How was this supposed to have come about?
\_ I thought I rehashed this for the motd. Jeri Ryan used to be
married to an Illinois senator. They had a messy divorce.
Some of their divorce documents became public, which mentioned
that Jeri was vastly annoyed with her husband because he would
always try to drag her to public sex clubs and have hot
threesomes with her in front of other people. It became clear
to the senator that he wasn't going to win the next election.
It wasn't just the public sex with 7 of 9, it was a variety
of things, but the hot sex with Jeri Ryan's while holding
Jeri Ryan's firm buttocks in front of a crowd at Chicago's
very best public sex clubs didn't help. He dropped out of
the race, Obama decided to get into the race, the Illinois
Republican party couldn't find anyone in the entire state of
Illinois to run against him, so they shipped in Alan Keyes
to run against him, from another state. You can't make this
stuff up!
\_ This was in the motd previously. I just forgot about it
completely until you reminded me. Sorry, my brain is
defective. But thanks, also, because my defective brain
allowed me to enjoy the story all over again.
\_ The sex club stuff was accusations, not proven facts AFAIK in
the contentious custody fight. The records were sealed and
LATimes got them unsealed.
\_ Jeri Ryan also claims that while her husband *WANTED*
her to participate she did not. She's now married to
a chef who has a very yummy French restaurant in LA.
\_ Jack Ryan was running for Senate, he was not a Senator. |
| 2009/1/28-2/6 [Politics/Domestic/911] UID:52481 Activity:low |
1/28 One of the criticisms of the Patriot Act was that it was rammed
through without any time for legislators to properly review
it. Isn't that the same problem with this $800B bill?
\_ Is this $800B bill hundreds upon hundreds of pages long? It's not
coming off the heels of a crisis in national defense; rather, it's
attempting to fix a spiraling economy. Plus it seems that the
Republicans are legitimately debating points on it, so I don't know
that it's really the case that you can make the parallel.
\_ there is a real sense of urgency as if we don't act, the econmy
will get a lot worse. And no, there was no real urgency when
we passed Patriot Act.
\_ Right. Because after 9/11 all the terrorist unfurled their
"Mission Accomplished" banners and decided to rest on their
laurels. Their job was done...
\_ When you can explain to me how the Patriot Act actually
prevented new terrorist attacks, I will give you a shiny
penny.
\_ Show me where I said the Patriot Act prevented new
terrorist attacks (or even where I defended the Patriot
Act for that matter). STFU and learn some reading
comprehension. Dumbass.
comprehension.
\_ Mighty thin skin you got there, mighty mouse.
\_ I am sorry. You have *NO IDEA* what is like when national
security is treaten. Last time US national security was
REALLY threaten by a foreign power was year of 1812.
\_ So you were alive in 1812?
\_ are you connor mcleod of the clann mcleod? |
| 2009/1/28-2/4 [Politics/Domestic/Election, Politics/Domestic/RepublicanMedia] UID:52482 Activity:nil |
1/28 Republicans in power? More Republicans on TV! Republicans out of
power? More Republicans on TV!
http://thinkprogress.org/2009/01/28/cable-news-stimulus |
| 2009/1/28-2/4 [Finance/Banking, Finance/Investment] UID:52483 Activity:very high |
1/28 Pork bill passes the House, no R's vote for it.
\_ which pork bill?
\_ Yay, fair and balanced NPR:
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=99919378
Also, GOP apparently unclear on definition of pork.
\_ Even Chris Matthews called it one big earmark.
\_ The fact that you think he represents informed liberal
opinion says a lot about you.
\_ Pell Grants are pork?
\_ Apparently the R's haven't heard that old adage about
holes, shovels, and digging.
\_ Apparently, you're an idiot.
\_ Thanks for playing anyway.
\_ I think Democrats should of tied the "Pork" bill along with
should've or "should have" -- ...
TARP and Auto bail out. I failed to understand why money to
investment bank / commercial bank (e.g. TARP) is not considered
"pork" by Republicans while putting money into infrastructure is.
\_ Bankers donate money to the Republican party, but construction
workers do not.
\_ I wasn't particularly pro-bailout, but there are a few important
differences. The bailout money was often used in ways that
might come back. (Loans, stock, etc.) The bailout was also a
targetted attempt to have an immediate effect on a vital piece of
the economy. No capital and capitalism doesn't work.
Infrastructure may take years to even begin construction, that's
not a quick action. The stimulus bill also also is not
particularly targeted. It seems to chuck a billion or two to
anyone the dems like.
\_ As opposed to $18.4 billion for bonuses for the investment
bankers who got us into this mess. -tom
\_ tom prefers life in the mud.
\_ Yawn. Justify your side's naked corruption by pointing out
the other side's flaws. How exciting.
\_ what in the stimulus bill is naked corruption? -tom
\_ I already told you. Pell Grants. -!op
\_ I see: funding golden parachutes for
millionaires is OK; funding higher education
for the poor is naked corruption. Great.
Enjoy losing in 2012. -tom
\_ This number is bandied about, but what does it mean? I
read it is about 50% less than last year. What is the
average size of the bonus awarded and what is the base
pay? For instance, if total payroll is $1T (say) then
$18.4B in bonuses seems small. Or even if total
payroll is $18B then $18B in bonuses can still be
small if it is spread over 1M employees. I don't
sympathize with the banks, but this number is thrown
out there without much explanation. Were these bonuses
all cash or was there stock or options also awarded?
It costs the bank no cash to award someone $1M in options,
for instance.
all cash or were stock/options also awarded? It costs the
bank no cash to award someone $1M in options, for instance.
\_ http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/29/business/29bonus.html
The number is based largely on personal income tax
collections. It excludes stock options. -tom
\_ It almost doesn't matter what it means, other than
this: the guys who ruined our economy, destroyed their
companies and lost trillions of dollars are being
rewarded with bonuses.
\_ I think the word "bonus" is what trips people
up. It's just salary. It's more in good years
and less in bad years, like you might expect.
It will never really be zero any more than
you can expect those people to work for free no
matter how poorly they are performing. Certain
professions earn a significant amount of salary each
year in a lump sum "bonus" and it's not quite the
same thing as if you or I get a bonus at work.
For example, my sister's ex-husband worked for a
law firm and every year they got a "Christmas
bonus" of 1 week's salary. It's common in law
just as in banking. Eliminating the bonus is
equivalent to cutting salary. Would it make you
feel better if they said they were reducing their
"base salary" 50%? That's essentially what is
happening. Their salary is tied to performance,
but that doesn't mean their poor performance = zero
salary any more than yours should be. If they
perform poorly enough they will be fired and
many have been. BTW, the average bonus was $112K,
which was down 36.7%. Sounds like a big pay cut
to me. Did you get a 37% pay cut because your
company's revenues went down in the poor market?
many have been.
\_ What was the average base pay? The bonus could
go to zero and these losers would still get paid
more than enough. Using taxpayer dollars to
give incentive-based pay to people who drove
their companies into bankruptcy and the entire
economy into crisis is absolutely, completely
indefensible. And then to attack Pell Grants!
I suppose the conservative strategy of asserting
things too ridiculous to argue against is still
in force. -tom
\_ 1. I didn't attack Pell Grants.
2. I like how you say their pay would be
"more than enough", comrade. I think you
could survive on half your current salary
and in a studio apartment instead of a
house, but the market values your services
more than that. I read that the average Wall
Street salary is around $300K with a base
salary of $100-250K. So it's reasonable
to think a typical package might be $150K
base salary and a $150K bonus. If you
eliminate the $150K bonus entirely then
base pay is still more than enough to live
on, but likely far less than what it would
take to retain top talent. Heck, you can
barely get a sysadmin for City of SF for
$150K. Lots of these guys are Harvard
Business grad with years of experience
who fell prey to the whims of their
CEOs who decided to use a lot of leverage.
The CEOs should suffer. The rank-and-file
traders and bankers are suffering
enough if you pay attention to how many
are out of work now.
\_ No, they haven't suffered enough. The
banking sector is still bloated and
overpaid. There is no particular reason
that a Harvard MBA should make $300k,
unless he is contributing that much to
society. For the last 10 years, the
bankers have disastrously misallocated
capital. If they don't like mere $150k
salaries, good luck finding an industry
that will support them in the lifestyle
they think they deserve.
\_ http://tinyurl.com/ajf25h (WSJ)
\_ People aren't paid according to
"what they contribute to society".
Most of those guys are very smart
and will find something else to
do, which would leave the banks
run by people less capable. You think
it's bad *now*?
\_ I don't think there's any evidence
that the people running the banks
are very capable. If they're so
fucking capable, why are they all
going bankrupt? The argument about
"that's what it costs to retain
top talent" is 100% bullshit.
The system is rigged. CEOs, VPs
and hotshots get to decide who to
pay what--and, surprise surprise,
they decide that it's vital to
the interest of the company to
pay CEOs, VPs and hotshots more
and more as a function of total
revenue and earnings. Until the
whole thing comes crashing down
and they ask the government to
bail them out. The absolute first
thing that should happen before
any bankrupt institution is bailed
out is that all performance-based
pay should be immediately suspended
until the company is solvent. If
that means that executives leave
for other companies that managed
their assets better and therefore
aren't going bankrupt, that's fine;
isn't survival of the fittest one
of the tenets of the market
economists? -tom
\_ Lots of free-market cheerleaders
seem to forget the basic econ 101
stuff that says what is needed
for markets to function. Namely
competition and low barriers to
entry.
What is it about these banks that
makes them able to keep fat
profits year after year?
\_ Somehow society was able to function
with a banking sector that was half
the current size - as a proportion
of the economy - for many decades.
All those Ivy geniuses can go find
another way to game the system (and
ultimately rip off the taxpayer, no
doubt). Almost every "invention" of
the financial sector in the last 10
years was crap. Is it seriously
your contention that these guys
deserve lifetime employment on the
public dime at $300k/yr, even though
what they produce has no value to
society whatsover?
\_ Somehow society was able to
function with a banking sector that
was half the current size - as a
proportion of the economy - for
many decades. All those Ivy
geniuses can go find another way to
game the system (and ultimately rip
off the taxpayer, no doubt). Almost
every "invention" of the financial
sector in the last 10 years was
crap. Is it seriously your
contention that these guys deserve
lifetime employment on the public
dime at $300k/yr, even though what
they produce has no value to
society whatsoever?
\_ I don't think they deserve
lifetime employment on the
public dime forever. I never
said that. However, letting
the big banks BK would be a
disaster. This whole thing
about bonuses is a PR stunt
as is Obama's outrage. Banks
are going to need $1T and we're
worrying about $20B in bonuses
that were earned? Do you really
contend that banks have no value
to society?!
A bank that does a good job of allocating _/
capital to productive uses has a value.
Do you think that the primary inventions
of the financial sector of the last decade
or so (CDS, CDOs, SIVs, etc) have had a
net positive value? If so, why are all
the banks collapsing? If anything, the
total contribution to society by the
financial sector over the last decade
has been strongly negative. This is
reflected in the change in their
equity value, and in the collapse in
value of all the stupid things they
allocated capital to (most exurban
McMansions, but also the mostly
speculative paper instraments used
speculative paper instruments used
to gamble on them).
\_ http://tinyurl.com/ajf25h (WJ)
Check out the comments. Even the WSJ readers
are getting restless.
\_ Just the media stirring up shit and now the
rabble is roused. What about bailing out
auto workers who made shit cars? I know a
lot of people are against that, too, but
at some point you have to place blame
where it is due, which is management. The
auto workers were just building the cars
they were told to build. Likewise, the bank
employees were just selling the products they
were told to sell while the government
cheered from the sidelines about how many
more people could now afford home ownership
while keeping rates insanely low and wasting
$$$ in Iraq. Blame Bush for this mess.
\_ It is funny that you think that the
readership of the WSJ is "the rabble."
You can imagine what the actual rabble
think of the bank bailouts.
\_ Doesn't matter what they think. They
don't realize what will happen without
lending or credit. For instance, most
hospitals use large lines of credit to
cover bills during the period between
when services are rendered and the
insurance companies finally pay. The
average consumer relies on banks for
a lot more than they realize.
\_ In a democracy, what the people think
matters. Especially when you coming to
the taxpayer, hat in hand, asking for
a bailout. The current overleveraged
banks could all fail and all that
would happen is that new bunch would
crop up to take their place. No doubt
the economy needs credit. Why do we
need Citibank, JPM and all the other
crooks?
\_ That's why we have a republic.
We don't need uninformed citizens
making these decisions.
\_ I am mostly unimpressed with
what our elected representatives
have done so far, but you are
probably right, a directly
democratic response would
probably be even worse.
\_ automaker bailout is what, 1/100th of the
bank bailout?
\_ In other industries, you are awarded a bonus for doing well
or if the company has done well in that year. There is no sane
person who can claim the banking industry did well in 2008.
So why did they get bonuses? That's what bugs me.
\_ This is not "other industries" and Wall Street and law firms
work differently.
\_ They work differently because they've stacked the deck in
favor of lining their own pockets. The role of government
is to protect taxpayer assets, not performance-based
compensation for executives of bankrupt companies. Let
them try to convince the bankruptcy court that the first
priority is to pay them their bonuses. -tom
\_ Bankruptcy courts are genrally in favor of companies
making payroll.
\_ Bonuses != payroll.
\_ Except that in the case of certain firms (like banks)
they really are almost the same thing. Bonuses
are not some optional incentives based on merit
or something, although they can be tied to it.
Think of bonuses more like tips for a waitress.
Sure, you make more if you're good but they aren't
really optional. Even bad service results in a
tip (or should anyway) because the payscale and
taxes are based on that.
\_ Bankers don't make $2.80/hr.
\_ This is back to the "They make more than *I*
think they are worth" argument. We can say
that about software engineers or any job,
really. However, that's not how salaries
are determined in this country. Go back to
Soviet Russia. It's much more equitable there.
\_ Except software engineers are not asking
for handouts from the Federal government.
You keep "forgetting" that part.
\_ Tangential. You can argue that companies
shouldn't be receiving aid, but that's
not your argument. Your argument is
that the government should dictate
salaries in turn for aid. That will
leave those companies without any
employees, because paying them 50%
of market rate for salaries will
have them leaving in droves. How
will that help anything? The banks
may as well BK then.
\_ OK. -tom
\_ So let's be clear that your issue
isn't "bonuses". It's that the
banks are receiving any money
at all. Why beat around the
bush for 6 paragraphs?
\_ So let's be clear that you
love to beat up straw men
rather than paying attention.
Fine. I'm not particularly
pleased that the banks are
receiving money, and I'm
outraged that the money
they're receiving is going
incentive-based pay for the
assholes who caused the
problem. And it's totally
typical for the Republican
typical of the Republican
disdain for the American
public. -tom
\_ I seriously doubt that the employees
will be leaving in droves, even if they
were paid the starvation wages of
will be leaving in droves, even if
they were paid the starvation wages of
$300k/yr. Especially since 100s of
thousands of others in their field
will be out of work. But it is a risk
I am willing to take.
\_ Exactly... this is ridiculous.
where exactly are they all gonna
go? The best they might do is
start a new company, or perhaps
use their genius to go to one of
those other lucrative $500k
careers out there, which would be
such a terrible loss for America
I know, our capital would be so
misallocated.
\_ One obvious place is to the
hedge funds and regional
banks, growing them into
megabanks of the type they
work for now. Of course, only
the best will leave. The bad
ones will remain to handle
the delevering, valuation
of assets, and spending of
TARP funds. My fear is that
the best ones are leaving
*anyway*. Wouldn't you?
\_ And if they go to a regional
bank (probably not making
$300k/yr) and grow it into
a well-run company that
efficiently makes loans, has
a well-run risk management
department and is not sucking
off the taxpayers teat, this
is a bad thing how, exactly?
\_ The Bad Thing is what
happens to the banks
they left.
Most hedge funds are closing,
not hiring, btw.
\_ Many are folding b/c
investors are withdrawing,
but this is a blip on
the radar. Mutual
funds, pensions, and
even hedgies still
manage a lot of money.
\_ Hedge funds are closing
because the returns on
their strategy have
dropped to 20% of
the original, rather
small percentage.
In fact, according to
DeLong it was a large
hedge fund getting
out of the business,
which hosed a number
of other highly
leveraged hedge funds,
which acted as the
trigger for the
whole liquidity
crisis. -tom
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123353536455237761.html
"It's just a tough, tough time, and there are a lot of
good people out there looking for work."
\_ Right, but they aren't going to work for $6.50/hour.
Let's not confuse "looking for work" with "looking
for any work at any price".
\_ I have a friend who does ibanking for UBS, 1st out of biz school,
didn't get fired in the 4 rounds of layoffs, I was adding up
her base salary (120k) to the bonus she got 140k and wondered
what the hell she did that was worth 260k a year.
\_ Is she hot? picsP |
| 2009/1/28-2/1 [Uncategorized] UID:52484 Activity:nil |
1/28 "big trouble for Obama nod"
link:www.yahoo.com/s/1022212
"John Coleman's friendly gesture on Inauguration Day could be the end
of his marching band career."
I don't get it. What's wrong with what this guy did?
\_ He belongs to an organization bound by officious and arbitrary
rules. He chose to break those ridiculous rules, so they banned
him. Sounds like an organization in need of reform. |