Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2008:December:29 Monday <Sunday, Tuesday>
Berkeley CSUA MOTD
2008/12/29-2009/1/3 [Consumer/Camera] UID:52302 Activity:high
12/29   Hello, I am a film/digital SLR shooter [i.e. I care about DoF control]
        but I am considering buying a Canon G10 to have something small I can
        carry around all the time and take into "hazardous conditions" where
        I would not bring my SLRs [water, climbing, other hands free/bag free
        situations]. Any thoughts on the Canon G10 ... limitations an SLR
        person would care about? Alternative/comparable models to consider?
        Poor design/interface issues? [dont like laggy response, bad controls].
        It sounds like some reports of noise above ISO 400? It's not super-
        small, but is it "small enough" to carry in a pocket? [I know I'll
        have to go try to find  one]. I have a trip coming up and it looks
        like you can get it for around $400 incl tax+shipping, so the timing
        seems right unless there is something spectacular around the horizon
        [Canon occasionally makes some announcements in Feb]. One technical
        question: is there any way to use a polarizer with a camera like this?
        I think this camera should do nicely shooting static outdoor scenes in
        bright conditions, but how does it do shooting people indoors in the
        evening/night?  Also, is there some kind of lens cover [analogous to a
        sky/uv filter on an SLR lens] that is recommended for these kinds of
        camera [for protection, not contrast control]. Thanks.
        \_ Obviously, you don't have the right SLR gears. The pro-series
           DSLRs are well built and weather-proof. For biggest bang for
           bucks I highly recommend the Canon 5D Mark II with 24-70mm
           f/2.8L IS, which is superior over the Nikon D700 with 24-70mm f/2.8
           *without* VR. It'll help you build a lot of muscle and look cool.
           The D700 is much better weather-sealed though not as good as
           the 1Ds or D3. At any rate, pro-series lenses and bodies are
           weather-sealed, appropriate for rough conditions. ISO 6400 on
           the D700 is the same as 1600 on my XSi.
        \_ Ever considered Olympus E-420 with 25mm (50mm equivalent) pancake?
           At the moment, it's the smallest DSLR in the world.
           \_ That's an interesting suggestion. The price is comparable,
              the weight is only 10% more than the G10 ... and it uses CF
              instread of SD, so storage is compatible with by DSLRs. The
              problem is it appears fairly significantly larger and is not
              really plausible as an unbiquitous pocket camera. The form
              factor of the Canon SD 980 is good, but it only goes up to 36mm
              wide. Here is a question: is it remotely feasable to carry *any*
              of these camera with 2.5 - 3in view screeen without a pouch/
              bag, i.e. in a pant/fleece/jacket pocket.
              \_ I carry the SD710 in a pocket all the time.  -tom
        \_ What kind of SLR do you use? What kind of post processing
           software (white balance, exposure, etc) do you use?
           \_ In the last 10 years: N90, D70, F4, F5, D1x and limited D2.
              I am not very sophisticated about post-processing beyond
              crop, sharp, and some limited color adjustments.
        \_ I use a Canon PowerShot S5IS for this purpose.  You can buy a
           lens tube adapter which will let you use standard 58mm filters;
           the G10 also has that option.  The S5IS has pretty poor performance
           at ISO400 and above; I really try not to use it for indoor/night
           shooting except for snapshots.  There are some lens distortion
           issues at the far ends, but they're not too bad.  Having the
           super-zoom in a small package is really nice.  I've taken more
           outstanding photos with my S5IS than with my SLR, mostly because
           I always have the S5IS with me and I only carry the SLR when I'm
           specifically doing photography.   -tom
           \_ What kind of SLR do you have and what post processing
              software do you use tom?
              \_ Canon XSi, mostly Photoshop Elements.  -tom
                 \_ Totally awesome pictures below, tom. What kind of
                    lenses do you have, what are your favorites?
                    \_ Well, like I said, most of those shots were
                       with my Fuji FinePix 4900, Canon PowerShot S2IS
                       or S5IS.  In fact I think everything in the
                       first set was shot on those; most of them were
                       taken before I had an SLR at all.  So far, all I
                       have on the XSi is the kit lens (18-55mm IS) and
                       an f/1.4 50mm prime. (Covers the greatest shortcomings
                       of the S5IS, low-light performance and depth of field.)
                       Next is some kind of zoom.  -tom
                 \_ You're an out-dated fart but use modern (non-old-fart
                    Nikon-brand) cameras. Good job.
           \_ Please post some links to your outstanding S5 and SLR photos.
           \_ The S5 looks like a so-so choice for somebody with an SLR.
              It's large, slow, I think electronic viewfinders are terrible
              and doesnt really have wide angle, which is largely what
              cameras with small sensors are good at. This seems clearly
              a camera you either have to carry in a bag or around your
              neck, not in a pocket.
              (I have a strong negative reaction to these type of cameras
              after using an awful, large clunky Coolpix with a big lens
              and EVF).
              Of course I dont know what were the other options on the market
              at the time and what were your non-negotiable parameters.
              No offense but this camera seems like a weird gimmick with
              very long zoom as its distinguishing positive feature
              [the "stalker lens" I use is a 200-400mm stabilized lens, which
              on a digital has a 600mm field of view ... and this is of fairly
              limited use ... I wouldnt call the picture I get from it
              "outstanding", although you do get something, such as when
              illegally shooting at concerts].
              The one real win with the G10 seems to be *4 stop* IS at 150mm,
              so I can see zoom being a strength. My problem is the strong
              point of the G10 are the kinds of pictures I care the most
              about and am the most willing to haul around the SLR gear and
              tripods and filters. I dont think there really is a solution
              in the market place for "point and shoot" priced and sized
              camera I can carry around all the time to shoot people not too
              far away with depth of field control.
              \_ I think you're right that there isn't a pocket camera that
                 can perform like an SLR.  But the most important camera
                 feature is that you have it with you.  Last year I took
                 a trip to Belize and lost my S5IS to a crappy underwater
                 bag during the first week.  I spent the rest of the trip
                 shooting with a pocket camera (Canon SD710) and got some
                 outstanding shots.  The less featureful camera limits you,
                 but still can do a whole lot with it.  People do great
                 photography with Polaroids and LOMOs.  -tom
        \_ Panasonic LX3.  No question about it.  24mm f/2 on the wide end,
           f/2.8 on the long end which give you some degree of DoF control.
           relatively wide shutter speed selections, RAW capabilities,
           hot-shoe, and 1cm minimum focus distance.   The optics on this
           p&s camera is for some reason a couple notch better than any of
           the competitors.  i would argue that it is a non-gimic,
           photographer's compact camera        kngharv
           \_ OP here: this is an excellent suggestion given my parameters
              [pocket size/weight, faster lens etc] at a comparable price.
              I don't follow the "offbrands", so I was not very aware of
              what the non-Canon best of breed options were. Thanks.
              Question: at the long end, with this camera wide open [60mm
              field of view, at f/2.8], aren't you getting the 35mm DoF of
              f/8 - f/11? So do portraits look reasonable in terms of out of
              focus background?
              p.s. good to see somebody opting out of the megapixel arms race.
              \_ I thought this was a good G10 v. LX3 comparison:
              \_ I just noticed the LX3 doesn't have an optical view finder.
                 This may be a deal killer for me, at least at the moment.
                 I may end up buying both the LX3 and G10.
                 \_ Excellent link my friend. As a semi-pro (someone
                    who makes 1/8 a living by taking wedding pics), I
                    don't use anything other than f/2.8 or wider, DSLR
                    or not. Lumix LX3 fits that profile. I'm surprised
                    that they consider the lens "wide-angle". Wide-angle
                    is really 10.5mm on APS-C or 14mm on full frame.
                    \- i'm not totally sure what you are saying above.
                       f/2.8 on one of those micro sensors is not
                       f/2.8 on something like a 35mm portrait lens
                       when it comes to depth of field produced.
                       i dont know how much agreement over the focal length
                       where wide angle starts, but everyone i know would
                       consider 24mm [w.r.t. 35mm] to be shooting wide.
                       the 17-18mm range begin the ultra wides ...
                       beyond that you get into the rectilinear UUWs and
                       Here are Ken Rockwell's ranges and classifications:
                        [search for "definitions" and see the tables]
           \_ What is the 24mm equivalent to a "normal" 35mm film?
              \_ 24-60mm equivalent. Not as much as the legendary
                 Canon 24-70mm f/2.8L, but certainly a lot cheaper.
                 PS, Nikkor 24-70mm f/2.8 sucks ass and costs more.
                 Why is Nikon even competing these days?
        \_ I'm not a Canon expert, and I didnt look carefully for any
           hidden gotchas, but this looks like a pretty great deal for
           anybody looking to get a dSLR:
           Canon 40D: $319:
           So if you can live with 1.6x crop factor and dont need new features
           like LiveView ...
           \_ Are you looking to switch from Nikon?
2008/12/29-2009/1/7 [Consumer/Camera] UID:52303 Activity:nil
12/29   Good bye Polaroid! Good riddens.
        \_ Riddance.  Sigh.  Kids these days
Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2008:December:29 Monday <Sunday, Tuesday>