12/22 What the deal with flyng a confederate flag? I always assumed
it was a symbol of racism, but some people seem to do it so
casually that I'm not sure that's it anymore.
\_ it's a southern heritage pride thing, which oftens involves
the flag waver ignoring how pissed off a brown person might
get about it. whatever, i don't care, i'll never live anywhere
where people are stupid enough to still wave the rebel flag
\_ Well, yeah, but I live in the bay area and there's a house
down the street with one next to the US flag. WTF?
\_ Maybe getting up in his face would help resolve the situation,
especially if you are a minority or foreign born.
\_ flying US flag == ok. flying rebel flag == not so ok. understand?
\_ it's just a dukes of hazard thing
\_ It's not typically about racism. It's about pride of independence.
I went to the Jefferson Davis home and there were Confedertate
flags everywhere (as you might guess) and race doesn't play any
part in it. It might have 100 years ago, but not now.
\_ Really? Do you know any black people that fly a confederate
flay? Why not?
flag? Why not?
\_ I bought mine at a store in alabama from a black storekeeper.
\_ I personally don't know *anyone* who flies a Confederate
flag. However, like I said, I saw some flying at the home
of Jefferson Davis. Do you think that's a statement on
race? I don't.
\_ I've seen it flown everwhere, from alabama to black rock
city. You see what you want to see with it. YMMV
\_ The problem with showing Ink Blob psychology pictures
to a nation as diverse as America is that you're
almost guaranteed to offend someone.
\_ You're guaranteed to offend someone no matter what
you do or don't do. I think a lot of Yankees find
the Confederate flag offensive, but I'm not sure
it's because of any racial issue. The Civil War
wasn't really about race. I spent some time touring
antebellum plantations this holiday and was told
that almost nothing changed in terms of treatment
or conditions for the 'slaves' after the Civil War
ended except that they drew meager salaries which
basically provided for their subsistence. Some of the
'slave's quarters' were used by sharecroppers up until
the 1970's. Southerners were very classist, certainly.
Maybe still are. However, the Confederate flag is not
some blatant symbol of racism like, say, the Swastika
is. If it makes people uncomfortable it's because it
reopens wounds that still haven't completely healed (on
both sides). Yankees like to play the race card more
than Southerners do when it comes to the Civil War and
the Confederacy which is, I think, how Lincoln and his
cabinet crafted things to be. (History is written
by the winners...) I've spent a lot of time in The
South and Yankees are guilty of perpetuating a lot of
ugly Southern stereotypes. It's just that in places like
SF there's no one to call them on it and so it becomes
fact to people who obtain all of their knowledge of
The South from "The Dukes of Hazzard".
\_ It's on TV, it's true. Moral of the story:
if you start a war, you better make sure you
win the war. WW2 turned a bunch of elitist
Japanese into Western material worshipping,
bukake loving wimps.
\_ The Civil War was certainly about slavery, even if
it wasn't about "race." Are you really this mis-
informed about American history, or are you just
trolling? Of course the Confederate flag is a symbol
of racism, perhaps not when flying over a monument,
but pretty much every racist group, including the
Klan and skinhead groups, uses it as one of their
symbols. You have a very simplistic view of The
Reconstruction and aftermath as well, btw. The
former slaves did not simply all turn into
sharecroppers. I agree with what you say about many
Californians idiotically assuming that everyone with
a Southern accent must be stupid and uneducated. I
was stationed in North Carolina for three years and
people there are no dumber than anywhere else. If
anything, race relations are probably a bit better
in The South than in The Bay Area today.
\_ The Civil War was not really about slavery.
Lincoln didn't free the slaves until it was
underway and not even in all states. That's not to
say that slavery wasn't a contributing factor
to the conflict. However, as you say, slavery
isn't race. Lincoln himself believed in white
supremacy. Many (most?) Yankees opposed to
slavery were still racist and slavery was hardly
a Southern North American phenomenon. Slavery
hasn't been allowed for 140 years, but racism is
still alive and well in this country. The
Confederate flag isn't a symbol of racism any more
than is the American flag which the Klan proudly
displays at its rallies. BTW, I didn't say all
slaves turned into sharecroppers. I mentioned that
because it was clear that the Yankees didn't give
a shit about what happened to the slaves they
freed and many of them had the same (or worse)
lives after the Civil War. That's not to say
slaves preferred bondage, but it calls into
question Yankee motives when there were people
essentially working as paid slaves to wealthy
landowners at least until the 1970s if not
beyond.
To be clear: I think the Confederate flag can
rightfully be construed as offensive, but not
because it represents racism. How would you
feel about someone flying the flag of the
USSR or North Korea?
\_ Your broad brush ignores the thousands of
"carpetbaggers" who risked everything to move
to The South to help blacks gain the rights to
vote and public education. Many of them ended
up killed for their efforts. Not to mention the
many northerners who stayed at home and
supported Republican causes. While it is true
that eventually most of the gains of the Civil
War were rolled back, it is a stretch to lay
this at the hands of "Yankees." It was mostly
Southern voters who created things like Black
Laws and Jim Crow. They had some support from
Northerners, to be sure, but not generally a
majority of them. In America today, wearing or
displaying the Confederate flag is generally
concered a statement supporting the ideals of
the Southern Rebellion, which inculded support
for slavery and the racism that implies. There
are exceptions of course, and everything
depends on circumstance (using one in a play
about the antebellum South, for example), but
a majority feels that way. You can argue until
you are blue in the face but it won't change
that fact.
\_ Do you have any evidence to support your
fact that a majority of people associate the
Confederate flag with racism? How much
of a majority: 51% to 49%? What if 88%
of people don't see a problem with it,
but 12% do? Is that still okay? What if
those 12% are also blacks? I'd like to see
some statistics here.
\_ Do you need to see statistics that
flying the flag of the Third Reich
has implications of anti-semitism?
The Confederacy was a government that
wanted to assert its right to make
decisions separately from the federal
government, and the major issue the
rebel states wanted self-determination
about was slavery. It's disingenuous
to say the Civil War wasn't about slavery
just because the Emancipation
Proclamation happened after it began;
slavery was the #1 political issue
of the time. -tom
\_ The Third Reich incinerated lots of
Jews and made no apologies. On the
other hand, the Confederates didn't
do anything the Yankees didn't.
It's not like the Union was
exclusively comprised of states
that did not own slaves or that
Northerners were not racist. So,
yes, I need to some some statistics.
I saw some hand-waving on the
Internets about most people (even
most black people) *not* being
offended by the Confederate flag.
Cited was a Harris poll taken in
1994, but Harris archives do not
go back that far. Real data and
not opinions taken as fact by Bay
Area Yankees would be really useful.
\_ People from California are generally
\_ People from C[A] are generally
not considered Yankees, or at least
that is what I have been told by
many Southerners. In any case,
googling for "confederate flag
gallup" gives you the results of
a gallup poll in 1992 and 2000 on
this topic. In 1992, 27% thought
that displaying the Confederate
Flag was primarily or partially
racist, in 2000, the number was
37%. They have not done a poll
since then. A majority of blacks in
Alabama voted to remove the "stars
and bars" from the state flag, while
a majority of whites voted the
opposite. Gallup poll responders
were split on the issue in 2000.
and bars" from the state flag,
while a majority of whites voted
the opposite. Gallup poll
responders were split on the issue
in 2000.
\_ California was fighting on
the side of the Union,
so... Less than 40% of people
consider it "partially racist".
Therefore, most people do
not consider it so.
\_ Yes, I can do the math and I
see that my claim is not
supported by polls from 2000.
I would like more recent
numbers if possible, but in
any case, you can see why it
is a contentious issue.
\_ This is not a symbol of racism:
http://tinyurl.com/983av3
\_ I've noticed that hate websites really look like shit.
This one isn't the worst I've seen, but is somewhat shitty. |
http://csua.com/feed/